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• Thank you Brotha M'bwebe,
You can't make them tell the truth about their false story. Keep up the good search and I will continue to study, and share the truth. Until we can make a TRUE DIFFERENCE. PEACE AND BLESSINGS.
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by Stacie Mann (email@example.com) on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 at 12:46 PM
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: To answer your question, I think no. As is said amongst fellow Pan-Afrikanist's, 'No Afrikan is free until Afrika is free!'
Thanks for sharing this with me. I will add to my article.
You are about to read a thread-turned-cyber-debate between Yusef, a member of the Moorish Science Temple of America, and myself, M'Bwebe Ishangi which has been ongoing since August 27, 2010 to October 19, 2010... Hope it proves useful on your 'quest' of questionz and inner-standing!
• Always glad to see a good brother involved in deep thought, reflection and study. There is a lot of confusion about the beginning of Islam. Mohammed (P.B.U.H.) UNITED Islam because so called Christianity was UNITED by Constantine a few centuries earlier. ISLAM EXISTED LONG BEFORE. Remember, the Kabbah at Mekkah is a temple that was built by Abraham whom the Jewish religion tries to monopolize. Also, Jesus (who the Christians try to monopolize) practiced the tenants of Islam and taught about Allah. You will find that ALL true Prophets taught about, acknowledged and reinforced the prophets before them, only correction the followers REINTERPRETATION who change the messages after the Prophet makes transition (so called death). This is proof of a connection of all the religions... a mysterious link for those who have not completely connected the dots. The link is Islam or Islamism (A term used to describe it's use before Mohammed united it).
Spirit Man (Asiatics aka Africans, asians, etc) ALL come from Noah's family who came from Adam. Noah's family inhabited Canaan land (now called the Israel and the Middle East). WE CAME FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, as well as ALL OF THE INHABITANTS OF AFRICA or AMEXEM as it was called before. In the Book of RUTH it clearly describes the lineage of Ruth whom was a Moabite dwelling in Canaan (the Middle East). Her descendants are stated therein as being Jesse, King David, Solomon, Hezekiah, Joseph (Mary), and thus Jesus. More proof of the connection.
I have to say that Morocco is currently an african state (or country if you will) in the continent of africa. Morocco, even before it was somewhat amalgamated, embraced Islam and still does to this present time.
We need to look into the links between Morocco and the USA after the fall of Granada in 1492 at the hands of Ferdinand and Isabella and the hiring of Christopher Columbus. Also the fact that the USA was first recognized as a free state (country) by the Sultan of Morocco, also the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, etc. We (enslaved Africans in the USA) were mostly from Morocco, this is a simple historical fact... very hidden and mysterious but a fact none the less. THAT MEANS THAT OUR CREED WAS ISLAM BEFORE WE WERE STRIPPED THROUGH COLONIALIZED SLAVERY HERE. We need to study and connect the recent history (just before the formation of the USA).
Modern Arabs have attempted to MONOPOLIZE Islam for Arabia. Thus you are right, most Sunni muslims in the USA HAVE traded their fake European names and culture for FAKE Arab names AND CULTURE which is really NO BETTER when they haven't rediscovered WHO THEY ARE and where THEIR family tree lies. The Arabs don't even accept them as equal. YOU ARE CORRECT THERE. The trick is that MOORISH ISLAM is a totally different practice and custom and culture. IT IS OUR TRUE CULTURE..... connected through Egypt and into ISREAL. When we change our names back to our Moorish Ancestors as instructed by the AMERICAN PROPHET Noble Drew Ali we regain our lost estate and TRUE IDENTITY. No Arabs were teaching Islam in America before 1913 when Noble Drew Ali first opened the Moorish Holy Temple of Science (former name of the Moorish Science Temple of America) nor at anytime while we were in the grips of slavery. Ponder that for a minute.
What the EUROPEAN has done was create confusion with the messages that the ALLAH has been sending to Spirit Man (true Man) by DIVIDING them the way he divides us. We have to research the truth and Knowledge of Self with open minds and it will jump out at you if you are sincere and FLUID. PEACE !!!!
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by Yusef El (firstname.lastname@example.org) on Friday, August 27, 2010 at 3:04 PM
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: What it is Brotha. Y'kno? I figured you may have a reply to this. I remember the meetingz I used to come to of yourz and the questionz I had. I actually wrote this piece back in '97, but felt the need to release online after goin' back to my crates, as well as re-reading Chancellor Williams book, 'Destruction of Black Civilization'.
Regarding your response, for me, chronological dates are important. I still do not agree with the notion of islam being here earlier than 632AD. I've read several texts from both Afrikan and even euro- writerz, none of which say or proved it originating before then. In addition, I don't use the bible, koran nor any other religious texts to prove historical facts mainly because they do not include dates and that's because these are not historical books! They are fables written by several men, who, I might add, were not of Afrikan descent! So the so-called life of jesus is something I do not believe, especially after realizing how identical his life was to Heru, who existed several millenniumz before (also read, Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, by Gerald Massey).
It's also hard to accept what you defined as our lineage because of the use of biblical characterz. When was the bible or any of these other text actuallywritten? Definitely millenniumz after pre-Dynastic Kemetic of the Nile Valley. Who actually wrote them?! And why aren't there any dates?!!? I find it puzzling how hedz can use these consistenly edited and multi-versionbooks in the same breath as fact without providing dates using a historical timeline.
The term Asiatics. I am in total disagreement with as the term for Afrikan people. Along with Chancellor Williams, several Afrikan Master Scholarz spent their lifetymz not only writing and researching, but actually goin' to Afrikan to get this info from Griots and ancient writingz proving "Black" people ('cause even Afrikan isn't the correct term. Actually it would be Wo'se, Nowe, or even Thebanz; names we used before the KMTic Dynasties began when "Black" people in Upper and Lower KMT lived harmoniously under universal law) originally were not asian and that term came once invasionz started in the Nile Valley, where asianz married into Afrikan families for the sole purpose of rulership (they only allowed asian men to intermarry), a war tactic shared by europeanz as well as the arabz. All this is covered in the first 100 pages of Chancellorz book.
Lastly, my biggest issue with MSTA is the use of termz 'Islam' and 'Allah', as you may remember was one of this consistent issues I brought up. If you can provide me with an exact historical date as to when the word was used before 632AD, I'd luv to know it. From my research, Islam is a word tied with a religion that was non-existent when we were at our highest and most at peace. Under the banner of islam, christianity and judaizm, we've seen war, death, and plagiarizm, all of which Afrikan people have the highest casualties...
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Nationality and Creed are two different things. You've mixed them. YOU HAVE TO SEPARATE THE ARAB CULTURE FROM ISLAM. They're not synonymous. It's not complicated. I'd like to see your take on the BOULE system Bro. You got anything on that?
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: I know they're different but majority of the practitionerz obviously do not. Although I still fail to see how islam has benefitted Afrikan people (again, and I know our original name is not Afrikan; it can be traced to the names Nowe, Wo'se or Thebes), I am aware of how effective the arabz have used it to their benefit — which is no different than the white christianz and so-called jewz with judaizm. Bottom line, neither of these 3 (christianity, islam, and judaizm) were around BEFORE the invasionz our Ancestorz experienced, which is the cause of the Nile Valley being separated and the creation of the Diasporic existence of Afrikan people around the world. So I stand by the title of this piece with my answer, 'Is Islam 4 Afrikanz?', When I look at how destructive it continues to be for our people, it's definitely a 'No!' And yes, I have gone in on the Boule' (it's an ongoing series)
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Let's focus on the difference (between Nationality and Creed).
The issue mentioned in this vid is relating to ARABIC CULTURE, HISTORY, and TRADITIONS..... NOT ISLAM which is international and manifests itself differently in different cultures. That is a fact...
further... to your second points:
Without calculating the Amalgamation process (grafting) in these states (countries) you're cutting off half of our rightful heritage. Our ancestors are the original founders of Egypt AND Palestine / Canaan land (now called Israel). Don't throw out the baby with the bath water!
You should look into WHY Islam was united in the 7th century by Muhammed (PBUH) based on the theft and uniting of Christianity by the Europeans and THEIR CRUSADE. Islam was given a name, a book and a war campaign to MATCH and COUNTER the strategic earlier Christian movements of the 3rd century behind Constantine. Islam is not the problem, ARABIAN culture is, so it should be the focus of your attack.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: True, the arabz have been just as inhumane toward our people as causasianz and even asianz for that matter, but when I look at the basic tenants of islam, they echo the same sentiments as the otherz with the most ital one bein' the violation of gender; the woman takes a backseat in islam just as she does in the otherz!
When I look at islam, how has it benefitted our people? Islam is not responsible for erecting pyramidz, conducting electricity from the ankh, nor the writing of the Medu Neter. The philosophies and ideologies we practice today are rooted tenz-of-thousandz of yearz ago in Ancient Ethiopia and Thebes. I've concluded, using a historical and chronological timeline, islamz origin is part of the legacy of culture bandits who invaded, stole, then plagiarized our culture just like the portuguese, greeks and the romans did, only 650 yearz later.
In addition, (and I don't mean to belittle the works of Noble Drew Ali), but with what he did, why isn't the MSTA where it should be? Why doesn't the MSTA have a military and legal teamz to protect it's followerz?! (I'm sure you can recall the many discussionz we've had about this.)
I believe as other noted historianz have said, the only way Afrikan people will unite is by giving up these religionz we did not create — including these so-called "holy books" (bible, koran, torah, etc), for they have been the poisonous thorn at the side of Afrikan liberation. Even brother Malcolm X said (in so many wordz), "when black people wanna talk about uniting, they must leave that religion at home!"
Lastly, at no time in the history of man were Afrikan people at peace with these practices in existence, so how can we envision such a thing (peace) by using these toolz of war?!!?
I think we need to concentrate our efforts on the way we lived BEFORE the invasionz...
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: I needed to make that basic distinction clear. Islam is not Arabic. Second: The 5 universal pillars of ISLAM are: 1- Shahattatain (declaration of ONE God), 2-Salat (prayer), 3- Zakat (charity), 4- Ramadan (the fast), 5- Hodge (pilgrimage)... that's it.
The principals of the MSTofA (Moorish American Islam) are: LOVE, TRUTH, PEACE, FREEDOM, and JUSTICE. which work in conjunction with the 5 pillars... that's it.
These are universal truths and they speak for themselves. In addition, it now seems you're promoting a Kemetic practice but you shouldn't throw another honorable practice under the train the way you are.
1-The tenants of Islam do not subjugate women. That was an Arabic problem at the time of Prophet Muhammed, and he took steps to eradicate it. Again an Arab issue not an Islamic one. Women can hold ANY position here in the MSTofA. My Grand Sheikess (head of my Temple) is a woman. I've had women Imam's, Governor's, and Mufti's (Guards).
2-Asians are our distant cousins (we have a common ancestor ). It's the European alone whom we are not related. There are really only two races Asiatics (original man) and Europeans. All others are mixtures. Trace the lineage of the father and you will find the root race. Black and White are modern terms modified by the U.S.A. to denote slave status. As slave tags, they are not intelligent terms for us to use. I've heard arguments that have tried to place the origin of Black further back and even in Kemet but I'm not convinced at all.
3-Noble Drew Ali (PBUH) brought Islam into America. The muslims of Arabia were not teaching it here prior (something to ponder deeply). The MSTA was meant to revive the (mentally deceased) state our minds were in. The seeds were planted and the 'reactions" occurred and the MSTA still exists to this day, actively and as a legal entity. BUT why did Egypt 'seemingly' fail / fall. Why did Jesus "seemingly" fail? They didn't. They prepared the way for a coming age, cultivating the mind of man. Noble Drew Ali gave the fallen Asiatic a prescription in 1928 that would take nearly a century for us to comprehend fully. He was preparing us for exactly now. He was ordained in Giza in the Egyptian mystery system all the Prophets went through..... Still don't see the connection?
4-Without Islam (in modern America alone) we would likely not even have decent baptist churches. When Prophet Noble Drew Ali introduced Islam into America in 1916 it spawned the NOI, the 5 percent Nation, and even the release and spread of Sunni Islam which didn't exist here prior. The resulting mental 'rising' and pressure made the Civil Rights movement possible (the little we do have). Could you imagine the U.S. without Islam, is the real question.
5-Islamic Spain (Moorish Spain 711 - 1492) spawned ALL of the ARTS: poetry, painting; SCIENCE: surgery was created by Moors in spain; Academia: Algebra, the first (or the best) Colleges were in Cordova (Moorish) Spain, we were testing planes in Spain before Leonardo 's Di Vinci's father was born. Coffee was invented in Moorish Spain. CHIVALRY, STREETLIGHTS, PLUMBING.... etc all came from Moorish Islamic Spain.
Throwing all those messages from God (religions) away or destroying them because they have been distorted or misused, is too simple an answer. We need to look at this in a more complex and open minded way. Truth can not change.... so it's hard to hide or distort, even in King James' Nicean Bible.
Islam (essentially) is the practice of listening to God to achieve harmony and ultimately enlightenment. That's what Judaism was meant to be, and what Jesus (Issa) taught. That IS what we were doing in Kemet.
Brother Malcolm died as an acting Muslim practicing all the tenants of Islam.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: I'm gonna dwell on a couple of your last points:
1) I ask what is the MSTA's stance on the original name of 'Allah' being 'Al-lat' — a woman. If this is acknowledged then MSTA doesn't fall in this group, but if it is not documented, they are no different than the other sects of islam...
2) Asianz are NOT our cousinz. So you're sayn' it was our very own cousinz that were part of the invasionz on the Nile Valley?! The asianz came into the Nile Valley as invaderz just like the caucasian and arab. Again, read 'Destruction of Black Civilization' by Chancellor Williams. This is a topic many fail to fully study. Everyone wants to know how we lost or fell from grace as Kingz and Queenz in Afrika, well this Master Scholar did the research and revealed what happened. No, our Ancestorz of the Nile Vally didn't fall because they were preparing for a coming age as you mentioned in point 3, they were consistently and overwhelmingly attacked due mainly because they did not expect the new "visitorz" to do a 180-degree-turn on them (something many of us still don't believe other ethnicities do to us). And why were they attacked? Because the Nile Valley bestowed many of the planet's most bountiful resources, from fertile soil to gold. These pirates were drawn to the Nile Valley like a vulture does a slowly dying body. They did not come in peace. If they did, they would not have overtook the surrounding ports eventually prohibiting our Ancestorz to conduct trade. And although we dropped the ball on defense, a concerted effort was made to let the world know who we were. Our Ancestorz built large statues with blatant Afrikan features [like Her-Em-Akhet (erroneously called the Sphinx) and even the Olmec hedz found in the America's] out of solid limestone because they knew they could withstand time so hedz would know Afrikanz existed and our place as originatorz of civilization.
The ignorance is evident when hedz don't study history and know that KMT (Egypt) became multicultural because of invasion ONLY. If one studies the Egyptian Dynasties, they'll know the Dynasties 1, 3-6, 11-12, 18-19 and 25 were Afrikan (Black people). This is also called the 'Golden Age'. What that meanz is the Dynasties in between were ran by whomever was the invader at the time and this includes ASIANZ! There is insurmountable evidence that proves the cauciasian, arab and asian purposely intermarried with Afrikan Royalty for one reason only, to get the power! So for Afrikanz to claim themselves to be asian or 'asiatic' is a form of mentacide (mental suicide). Any descendant of the Afrikan Diaspora who considerz to be other ethnicities than what we really are (again, Nowe, Wo'se or Theben) is no different than Afrikanz wanting to be white! The fact that there are so many that wish to be called everything under the sky except Afrikan is a phenomena in itself!
In addition, is it not asianz who are over in Afrika taking over as we speak? Today, in Dakar, Senegal, on a street named the Boulevard General Charles De Gaulle, Dakarz main street is now called 'Chinatown'?!!? The same strip where the annual Afrikan Independence Day parade takes place! Asianz contribute NOTHING to the suffering Senegalese economy. Come to think of it, take a look at our local asian restaurant, weave shops, and dry cleanerz; do they contribute to the local community here in hood?! They emphatically do not contribute to the Afrikan community in any way! They do what every other ethnicity does to us, they take our Black dollarz to THEIR communities; yet we still wanna sit by and think we're somehow asiatic; a big insult to our Ancestorz!
5) This is totally inaccurate my Brotha. You can't be saying there was no art, poetry, painting or science until the Moorz! Brotha, when studying history, we must, as Historian Ivan Van Sertima states, "study in chronological order". In other wordz, we must use a historical timeline! You state the Moorz creationz were as early as 711AD?!!? Several thousand yearz before, there were 4 Golden Ages which spawned great inventionz led by Afrikan people in the Nile Valley:
- The Step Pyramid was designed by the worldz first multi-genius, Imhotep over 5000 yearz ago! That takes math, architecture, science and astology (too much to detail here). Dynasties 3-6 (the 1st Golden Age, 2665-2100BC) was called the Pyramid Age. Has it not been proven it takes mathematics and science to erect these structures that still stand today?!
- Dynasties 11-12 (the 2nd Golden Age, 2140-1784BC) was called the Literary Age where we find the first Will and Testaments were drafted as well as the first Judicial Legal Cases
- Dynasties 18-19 (the 3rd Golden Age, 1554-1190BC) was the period where many Temples were built
- And the 25th Dynasty (the 4th and last Golden Age, 751-648BC) marks the last time Afrikanz were at the helm of KMT.
*[JEWEL]: Master Historian and author, Anthony Browder has played an ital role in the excavation and rebuilding of the temple of Kharakhamun. This era is also slated for a soon-to-be released movie currently called, 'The Last Pharaoh' played by Will Smith (around 2012-13).
All of these and more come well before the word 'islam', 'muhammad', 'koran', anything associated with islam was even thought of! This is just historical truth, B. And one other correction, the first recorded elite school system was in KMT, also known today as the Egyptian Mystery Schoolz, and that again PRE-DATES the school you speak of in Cordova.
You say no one performed surgery until the Moorz?!!? What about Imhotep, the obviously uknown first recorded multi-genius?! Or even Aset (erroneously called Isis) who performed the first mummification of her husband, Asar (erroneously called Osirus)?! You speak of flight? There were flying structures found in Saqqara. One is called the Bird of Saqqara (read 'Contributions from the Nile Valley Civilization, by Anthony Browder). You speak of plumbing?? Underwater sewage was found in KMT; electricity was discovered by using the Ankh — I could go on for dayz of the creation and discoveries our Ancestorz found BEFORE the invasion of non-Afrikanz.
It is clear we must all perform a Sankofa (go back and retrieve our history) because there are too many other pirates receiving credit and 99% are not Afrikan. This is the main reason Afrikan people today don't know who we are and will attach to anything someone sayz we were without study. The creation of faiths like these have proven to be more destructive to Afrikan people than have helped. Regardless of how one is able to be told to believe in a man-made god, all of these faiths have done nothing to free us. It has masterfully kept us spiritually and intellectually segregated and even worse, destitute — which one has to admit has been an ital piece to our physical and now mental enslavement...
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Asiatic (Asia major not minor) means Pangea (sp) thus as Original earth dwellers we are Asiatic. The fact that bloods bang with crips doesn't change their geneology and relation any more than Kain and Able. Asians (Chinese, Japanese) are derived from Noah's family. I didn't say the Prophets studied in Cordova, I said they studied in the same KMT mystery school you mentioned. My statements about Islamic inventions and contributions was an answer to your question, not a challenge as you want to take it. This conversation has spiraled off of it's original point. I'm the one on defense remember. SMH. I leave you in TRUTH!!!
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: See? That's my point! If Asiantic meanz Pangea, why not call yourselves Pangean?! This is the rooted problem and crux of this whole topic; everyone wants to study the origin of history yet when it comes to identifying ourselves with that origin, we instead choose the names of our captorz! Did we not learn one of the most effective wayz of separating and confusing a people is by having them forget their real names?!!? If it's not hedz thinkin' they're asian, its Afrikanz thinkin' they're greek (fraternities and sororities); Afrikanz thinkin' they're catholic, baptist, or muslim; Afrikanz choosing to perm their hair like otherz rather than our naturally coiled hair; interracial relationships; Afrikanz celebrating holidayz that actually honor serial killerz like Columbus Day, or Tiger Woods' infamous and idiotic "Cablin-Asian" reference. All this is Mentacide, Brotha. The evidence of our continued Maangamizi is vibrantly still in full effect! The day we decide to rid ourselves of these persona's that actually praise our numerous oppressorz, liberation will begin! And that's the ta-ruth, Ruth!
BTW, this is what you said regarding the schoolz in Cordova:
"Islamic Spain (Moorish Spain 711 - 1492) spawned ALL of the ARTS: poetry, painting; SCIENCE: surgery was created by Moors in spain; Academia: Algebra, the first (or the best) Colleges were in Cordova (Moorish) Spain"
I don't know how else to take it other than your sayin' they "spawned" which meanz "originate". You said they the "first Colleges were in Cordova". No mention of you sayin' they were in the KMT mystery schoolz 'til your last reply.
Oh, and regarding us allegedly being from Noah's fam? The problem is I do not believe that fable. The bible is full of legendary myths and flawz. For one, as said, the geneology of man in the Bible gives no date, so this can't be properly attributed to any era BEFORE the Nile Valley. I would suggest lookin' at some of Ashra Kwesi's work or even read Gerald Massey's, 'The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ'. Just cause the bible starts with "In the beginning..." doesn't mean it should be accepted without a date.
One should be aware these are dangerous texts to use when lookin' for the Afrikan presence in chronological history. This book is constantly re-edited yearly with numerous versionz and not one of the so-called prophets were around when these thingz happened, if they happened at all.
For a more accurate account, we should be aware the bible is but a cliff-note version taken from the 'Book of Coming Forth By Day and Night' from the Nile Valley thousandz of yearz before the word "bible" was even uttered.
And please Bredren, don't take my tone wrong. Sometymz in healthy debates emotion can intercede exchange. And when it comes to history, these discussionz can seem to feel like we're in the square ring. There's too much confusion out here for this topic to be taken lightly. As an aspiring vanguard of our legacy, lacing up is one duty I must serve!
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: One point I'd like to make here is that although I KNOW without a doubt that we are related to the Ancient Egyptians, HOW CAN YOU TRACE YOURSELF THERE (2 - 5+thousand years ago) from here today??? Where exactly were we between then and more recently???
We would be utterly LOST in our own history were it not for God's ability to intervene via true Prophets (messengers). Point blank. His (God's) constant intervention counters his "opposition's" constant attempts to confuse and misguide man. We canNOT attempt to assemble this puzzle on our own.... as it is a designed MAZE. designed strategically by those who are competing for our legacy and birthrights, history, etc. In our limited capacity we are attempting to patchwork our own maps and they're wrong. God's maps (messages) are perfect.
We need to learn to put our egos aside and look for those who are ordained to delivery and guide. The truth they provide is potent, self-evident, and sufficient. Obstructing his 'transmissions' from reaching men and women who need them is one of the greatest sins in God's eyes.
Also, the Egyptians were the Hamitites (descendants of Mizraim). Old man Cush was Ham's son. Cush is one of the Ancient names for Ethiopia (as well as Abysennia [sp]). Are Shem, Ham, Canaan, and Mizraim not Noah's sons? Pretty self-evident. Mizraim is also the forefather of the Chinese, Japanese, and the Arab (the seed of Hagar)
(We) The Moors were the Ancient Moabites and the founders of the City of Mecca. ALL THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS OF AFRICA (AMEXEM) ARE THE DESCENDANTS OF THE ANCIENT CANAANITE FROM THE LAND OF CANAAN (ISREAL). But it is probably more fair to say that the Moors of Spain helped to 'significantly advance' the Arts, Science, and Surgery. And "Cordova and Seville (During Moorish Rule) were internationally known for their beauty, scholarship and cultural sophistication. Cordoba Spain was renown as the intellectual hub of higher learning and progressive thinking in all of Europe."
Debate is healthy. Respect.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: B, we obviously come from different foundationz. See, I don't follow the bible or any of what's inside it, again, simply because of how it's manipulated the world and more bluntly, it's not based on facts. You wanna talk about the content inside the Book of Coming Forth By Day (the bible's source), cool, but a cliff-note knock-off? Imagine, a small collective has been able to deceive the world into believing their story without providing dates. Obviously the convincing process required a more violent approach, ie, the 'you-better-believe-in-my-god-or-I'll-kill-you' tactic; something Constantine used, which is again, my point of argument.
Can you prove the bible, koran, or any other so-called religious text around or being circulated before and even prior to the Kemetic Dynasties? No. Let's even entertain how these books (including the koran) are said to have come into existence. Whether it fell from the sky, 'godz' wordz were written in red denoting his blood, or any other comical theory they want hedz to believe, neither of these books were around when -ish really went down so how can I go by it's account as fact? And why would we when there does exist such a text that tells you what really happened and is also chiseled on temple wallz in KMT?!!?
So for me to use a source-less book that's been proven throughout history to benefit 1)non-Afrikanz [after all, many do think the bible justifies the enslavement of Afrikan people not knowin' that part was put in there] and 2)Men, as you mentioned in your response to god with the male connotation, a direct violation of gender. I mean, how can we truly act is if we know "god" if we continue to ignore the feminine aspect?! And for those who say the woman is included when they say man is pure Monstanto-cloned B-S! One resolution would be to start sayin' "she" instead for awhile, but I'm sure your religion won't allow that…
See, I don't need to look for anyone who claimz to be ordained to lead. That's the problem, they are not the deity, yet most elevate them to that. These "prophets" you speak of are human and can and should be challenged like any other (guess this is where you and I disagree). I don't need to follow any man, a chronological historical timeline is all I need! Man is corrupt, but history, true history is not!
The people you speak of (abraham, jacob, john and namely jesus) is also under historical scrutiny because it's been proven there was someone who lived the life exactly identical to the biblical jesus — his name being Heru.
Again, it seemz we stand on 2 different foundationz. By the time islam was founded, the Afrikan family had already been separated, with many perishing to the will of the invaderz or the unchartered territories of the continent at that time, again, read 'Destruction of Black Civilization'. I keep referencing this because the whole premise of this discussion is if Islam is for us. Being that it was a religion founded well after the destruction of the Black occupation of the Nile Valley, pretty much everything that was created since either helped Afrikanz re-unite or keep us discombobulated. Has islam honestly united us?!!? And no, patience is not the answer…
BTW, still waitin' on the nod on if MSTA acknowledges the original name of Allah bein' Al'lat, a woman. And if MSTA does acknowledge, my next question is why isn't that name used instead?
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: That specific separation is CRITICAL in understanding the "game" that is being played on us in this post-slavery era.... because we DON'T have our nationalities intact. We no longer even appreciate the value of having Nationality as were were stripped of ours and have gone without it for so long. That (National identification) and our COMPLETE history are the 2 parts that are missing and the reason we are charged as NON-men (3/5th of a man [2 fifths missing-2 masonic blows]) ....and it has severe LEGAL ramifications in this LAW-CODED United States of America Corporation..... but let's stick to the crux.
The way Prophets work (as messengers) are that they are ALWAYS sent: 1- to a fallen [Isrealites; US slaves] or puffed up (arrogant Arabs) NATION of people who have gone off the straight path. 2- They are sent DIRECTLY from the nation they are sent to save. 3- They're sent at the SAME TIME as the targeted nation is struggling. 4- They ALWAYS speak the LANGUAGE of the targeted Nation. 5-Their message is Universal to all times and climes. This is the unspoken LAW of Prophethood. Test any of those recognized and you will find this very specific set of circumstances to be true.
As I said Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Joseph, John the Baptist, Jesus, and etc are ALL recognized as Messengers of Allah in the Q'uran. [think deeply] ......As I said the Prophet Muhammmed (PBUH) didn't create Islam. It existed from Adam as a system of listening to the guidance of the Great God of the Universe. I am SURE this mystery system, we in the MSTofA call "Islamism", IS the CULMINATION of the KEMETIC sciences and practice protected, stored and [for a long time] hidden by the adepts and hidden brotherhood of Masterminds (from all our related cultures). That's the reason for the echoing of similarities.
Islam in Morocco is not the same as Arabic Al-Islam. They are totally different manifestations with different "Saints" and systems. Buddhist consider themselves Muslims.
Without an accurate Nationality we are "considered" degenerated or damaged goods. It's doesn't matter what creed we accept or how we strive to improve ourselves otherwise. Without National id we're not considered whole ....but instead still just slaves. Weather we are the European's slave or covert and change our names to become Islamic Arab slaves, Jewish or etc.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: I feel you on the legal ramificationz YTs set up against us but (as you may remember my saying at a few of your meetingz) my challenge with MSTA is the mention of 'prophets' — many of which, and in particular, 'jesus' who's life cannot be proven it actually happened (I mentioned before of Heru, who lived an identical life several thousand yearz BEFORE jesus), PLUS the continued insistence that 'islam' was here before, as you stated, 'Adam'.
I can't understand why MSTA won't use the ORIGINAL names and spiritual practices instead of one's shared by pirates, invaderz and plagiarists! It's the same as Black greeks calling themselves greek instead of Afrikan (again, Theban, Nowe, or Wo'se -- all original names before 'Afrika'). Same goes for someone who goes by their slavemasterz name. 'Johnson' or John's son; 'Jack'son or Jack's son, these are not our original names.
So why is the MSTA still using the word islam if they know, as you stated, the evolution came from KMT?!!? Keeping this charade of name play goin' only continues to confuse (and keep disunited) our people. Why is everyone so afraid of ORIGINAL Afrikan names and culture?!!?
I mean, the way the majority of hedz who practice islam today without acknowledging the Afrikan origin and presence makes right now the perfect time to use our original name!
Until Black people unite based on our original history (pre-invasion and before the makeup of the 3 religionz: christianity, islam, and judaizm) and accept our original names and identity, we will continue to remain separate which enables other people of the world to continue the exploitation of our people. Are we that afraid to rid ourselves of names and titles that didn't exist before the invasion of our Ancestorz in the Nile Valley?!!?
No, we are not muslim, not jewish, not arabic, etc. We are a people who have been the unlimited resource to every other race on this planet. Until we get that, we will remain the main course for everyone as they devour our homeland, our culture, our dignity, our manhood, our womanhood, our spirituality, and our self-respect. Man, talk about Thanksgiving...
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: The MSTofA's Prophet Noble Drew Ali (PBUH) had to pick his battles carefully. In preparing a prescription for the fallen Asiatic here in the US he had to consider our bent and mental state. In choosing the battles of Nationality and Creed and unveiling the ancient principals of Love, Truth, Peace, Freedom and Justice... he took on quite alot. Even the NOI is STILL reluctant to teach Nationality although it is known practiced by it's leadership.
Ali also exposed the ancient name for Africa, that being Amexem. ....And he gave us back our National family names being El and Bey.
He decided to be considerately conservative on things like: Deciding to use the teachings of Jesus, knowing that we would be struggling with the migration from Christianity. He also decided not to use the Ancient names, or even the hebrew names that were used in the Koran for Jacob (Yacuub), Jesus (Issa), David (Dawud) etc. The reason is that that info is laid clear within the Circle Seven Koran (The Moorish American Koran) for those who are ready for that DEGREE.
Degrees are what we are essentially talking about. You can't teach Graduate school info to a Elementary student.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: So lemme ask you this. Can a "prophet" make mistakes?! I feel Drew shoulda came a hundred or not at all. The result of "holding back" has kept us held back in 2010! As I said in an early post, our foundationz are different. I know we are not asiatic (again, a tricky name, cause regardless of anyone sayin' that was the original name of this planet, who classifies themselves as asianz today? They're definitely not the kinky-haired, thick-nosed and lipped Black people).
Last I checked, Drew Ali was a man, just as I am. Prophet or not, he was a man, not immortal, but a man. So who gave him the authority to choose to be so conservative? Who did he answer to? And I mean as a human, not the god he believed called 'Allah'. Who said it was ok to choose the unproven teachingz of jesus and the names??
And the mention of degreez only further separates our people! I mean, the common enemy is not us. So to me, it doesn't make sense to only share the playbook with a select few (who has to accept my way of life, in this case, Islam and the Circle Seven Koran you mentioned) and expect to compete against the opposition, who obviously STILL outnumberz us!
Selective teaching hasn't created revolutionaries, we STILL losin', B! Why not share all of the playbook (the knowledge) with our people, suit-up and finally go out and reclaim what's ourz??
Metaphorically, the difference between Graduate school and Elementary school is that Elementary is FREE! At what cost do we continue to tax our children and future at? Despite how many with that degree, AS A WHOLE, Afrikan people are STILL at the bottom of the socio-economic-and spiritual plane!
It's time we stop playin' games with each other, recognize our real foe, suit-up and reclaim! If anything, religion has proven to be our achilles, 'cause instead of us buildin' on strategy (which YT does everyday, all day), we still trying to decide what we believe and wanna call ourselves!
There's a saying that depicts what happened to our Ancestorz. I'll paraphase:
"When the invaderz came, WE had the land and THEY had the bible. The convinced us to close our eyes and when we reopened them, THEY had the land and WE had the bible."
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: How can you say he didn't come 100!! That's an opinion especially when you haven't yet registered, regained or digested the parts he has left..... which as I said are universal. Teaching in degrees is not half stepping Fam!!
A Prophet is a carrier of the perfect message of God Allah.... Usually delivered via the Angel Gabriel as I stated. Recognized or refuted internationally by the Sages!! This is not rocket science. Who are you to criticize or refute the perfect will of God.... especially if the message holds his (Gods) clear SEAL!!! Beware the Ego!
Because after all this time we are still in over our heads in water (drowning) doesn't mean we need to start attacking our rescuers! .....when they didn't shoot the torpedo that sank our ship!!
So what's YOUR big plan?
Many of us will be able to register TRUTH and most will not. Truth is North America has received it's first Major Prophet (1928) just in time for the touch age of (2012) that Prophets before have been targeting and preparing man for, for ages! That's a gift I'm not goin' let pass me by.
You study and wait on your plan and I will study and wait on mine. Just try and uphold a little respect for what you don't completely understand instead of standing for DIVISION of our people as you now are (under the guise of African Brotherhood) SMH!! Don't tell me "we're from two different foundationz" while you're attacking my belief system homie!!
People don't respect themselves so of course they can't respect something that comes from them. Prophets are always attacked and rejected by their own. But God only needs a few truth-seekers. Noah's people rejected him but the catch was.... God only ultimately needed ONE family.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: The issue is foundation, B. See, as I've stated, I do not follow the tenants of MSTA, islam, or any other religious-based group. To me, as I look at a historical timeline, all these systemz do is divide and conquer, again, something that was not practiced in the Nile Valley before the invasionz...
I do not see, nor accept Drew as my prophet, allah as my god or any "angel" named gabriel because, again, they did not exist in the Nile Valley before the invasionz, which PRE-DATES these religious systemz...
I am one to criticize because I am on a continued quest to be the sole controller of my mind. I am not one to easily accept a theory because someone said so, or it was published UNTIL and UNLESS I've done my own research. The people you speak of did not exist and wasn't even a thought in the Nile Valley before the invasionz...
As a human being with my own mind, I am more than suitable to question and challenge! I do not believe in what you call "the perfect will of god" simply because I do not believe in your god. This is no different than what YT did when they came to Afrika as missionaries with their concepts of god (where they banned together and discredited any other religion and ordained by the Roman Catholic Church Pope's, began calling non-believerz of christianity savages and therefore having the power to enslave them), as well as medicine doctorzz (where they turned Afrikan doctorz into spooky voodoo priests and witches).
This is the same thing you're doin', B. I do not bow down to your god, so I am free to question and challenge any and everything! It's not my fault if you can't handle that. And just because I do this, doesn't mean ego is involved. But then again, it is... Because 'ego' is defined as "one's self-esteem, self-importance, self-worth, self-respect, self-image, self-confidence." So when any of these are in question, protect ya neck!
Regarding my plan? I can honestly say I don't have a concrete one as yet, but I am diligently in study and pursuit of it, no question on that... In divine time (with study, discussion and links) I will...
And regarding your last post about truth. What's your truth, doesn't have to be mine. From what I know of the MSTA (and I will humbly point out I don't know everything), stemming from and since the discussionz you and I used to have when I used to attend your meetingz, the MSTA is not in position to protect it's message. As Talib Kweli once stated, "you can't be militant without a military."
When I inquired where the MSTA was regarding a military (and judicial team) that could protect its followerz when YT decided to attack (if MSTA became a threat), I was told there was none.
This conversation involves the topic of militancy, B. Goin' against global white supremacy is miltant and they've proven they will try and destroy anything that jeopardizes their rule. Can the prophet deliver protection? Has any religion for that matter??
It's been since 1928, so when EXACTLY will the prophets prophecy begin and when will victory be had?!!?
In that respect, we are from 2 different foundationz, because I do not adhere to the tenants of Drew, nor the MSTA. That does not mean we are not brotherz... See it as an attack if you want, I see it as constructive criticizm because you came to me presenting MSTA as the solution. As you can see, I'm not an easy sell, you should know that by now good brotha!
My rejection of your prophet is simply that. Until those numerous questionz I've asked are answered, it will remain as such. So I am not included as one of those people you stated is my prophet.
The respect part you ended with does not apply to me either, so I won't comment...
And by the way, I disagree, "god" needz MORE than a few 'cause we been gettin' our asses handed to us for nearly if not over 6000 yearz!
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Only functioning Nations have militaries Brother. It takes numbers.... you do the math.
I gotta say you're caught in your own catch-22. You are a seeker of truth with a sealed heart, ears and eyes??
You wanna know "Can a Prophet deliver Protection? or any Religion?" but you're not even familiar with the book of Revelations or Daniel which provide those answers. I'm not sure what to tell you Bro.
You'll know you're on your way when you achieve personal HARMONY in this life good Bro. You won't be worried or feel there's anything missing. Everybody's here.... in position. It's goin' down and victory is assured.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: I know it takes numberz but it's now 2010! Real talk, what's the delay (since 1928)?!!?
And that's your assumption thinkin' my heart, earz and eyes are sealed. And it's wrong... Again, as I've said several tymz, I don't adhere to the bible, koran, or any other religious text. I don't know why you can't accept the fact that there are those who just don't and frankly don't have to believe what you believe. Maybe we could/would if some of these alleged prophecies of liberation actually happened, 'cause last I checked, global white supremacy is in full effect and hasn't skipped a beat!
The people of Haiti have yet to be delivered supplies; there's still global poverty in what they deem "3rd world countries"; Oppenheimer is still mining diamondz in South Afrika; poverty and unemployment numberz still effect Afrikanz around the world the most; when exactly is this day of liberation the "prophets" speak of gonna happen? You say soon? Ok, guess I'm just supposed to accept that. Guess an exact date is not important... maybe not to you, but to me it most definitely is. I can even live with it not bein' in my lifetime, but to not provide a date is no different than the christianz and their mystery god. It is simply a promise not a fact; we know how easily promises have been broken...
You choose to continue to use the bible and koran as toolz to defend your stance, yet they are texts that did not exist until AFTER colonializm and have proven to be the most effective of toolz in keeping our people separated around the globe (no matter what you say, islam was part of this separation. And even though MSTA may not've been part of this kind of islam, why make it so confusing choosing the same name?!!? That's like a group of Afrikanz who wanna fight for liberation choosing the name Ku Klux Klan!).
How have these books and relgionz proven worthy of belief?? Ain't nothin' changed for Afrikan people. We still in this -ish, and hedz still think a book that's really a cliff-noted version of the Kemetic Book of Life, also called the "Book of Coming Forth By Day and Night" is gonna save us?!!? C'mon yo! The enemy uses the same text! Where's this god you speak of that's gonna bring judgement 'pon them?!!?
You speak of this "assured" victory and that everyone is in place. That's like tellin' me to buy a car without ever seeing it, much less a test drive.
And please, B, please note, I never, ever spoke of you regarding this, I been speaking frankly about this theology without bringing you into it. Now you're acting as though you know what I'm missing stating personal harmony and whatnot.
I can accept what you believe, even though I do not share the same thought. But you're not gonna hear me emphatically say that you're on the wrong path. If that's the path you wanna trek, so be it. Because I choose to walk another path is my choice. Besides, that's the trap religion creates, it implies non-believerz are lost because they won't accept your way. That's a tactic the pirating colonialists used, Brotha. Don't stoop to that level...
And because one does make themselves aware (you call it worry) does not mean they are not in harmony with themselves. It makes them alert! Our Ancestorz in KMT made the mistake of livin' in bliss never having to defend from foes until the invasionz started. By then they were ill-prepared and too late. To think you or the MSTA is more safe than I when it comes to dealing with global white supremacy is naive. You really think they're gonna give you a pass 'cause of Nationality? They see us as savages regardless of Nationality. Why you think they captured and enslaved different kindz of Afrikanz?! You actually think they thought, "no, you're from Nigeria, we won't colonize you, but you from Sudan, we will!" (?!!?)
Lastly, this victory you speak of isn't goin' to just be handed down to us from the heavenz. It's gonna take strategy, practice and implementation of that strategy and real living human breathing people!
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: You're correct, I can't [actually I won't] answer your questions about timing and what-not, because as you stated you have a different God than the One (Allah [APD]) I recognize. It doesn't work like that. Your's will have to answer that for you. I can just say that what I'm seeing and feeling falls exactly in line with what I was told / taught. I will say, a strong "sense" of, and faith-in the unseen is critical. I'm not worried.... that's all.
I read BEHOLD a PALE horse in '92 (front to back). I have long been a so-called "conspiracy theorist". I know all the details of the 911 set up, from demolition crew, to missing planes. I was aware of the HARP machine in 2004. I have unclassified documents on the U.S.'s HARP tests in Haiti and Chile etc. Documents on the bombs and barges used on the leveys in New Orleans. I see the military Concentration camps and Coffins. I KNOW who sits at the head position of this EVIL AXIS of power and they are not in this Western Hemisphere.... I know the whole history of the European's push to get into the Continent of Africa from the Greek and Roman campaigns, to the penetration of West Africa by France, England and Portugual. I'm very much on point. But I also see the other side... I've been blessed to SEE the activities that our side have been working on [again I won't expand in this venue]. So I don't need to focus on worrying. The higher power in which I am connected TRUMPS this European's technology and efforts. I see a man who is desperate and out of time.
To explain more would get into esoterics and higher degrees that you would [likely] not be able to follow if you don't see or agree with the basics we spoke on already. There's plenty info/insight in this chain already.
I'm perplexed by Brothers and Sisters who would not jump at an opportunity to EVEN JUST HEAR someone speak about their lost heritage, flag, history, etc in this day and age.
And I do feel that you're addressing me personally because as you mentioned Islam AND the MSTofA, I am the one who personally introduced you to all that you spoke on regarding that [That's because of the high regard I hold you as being a CONSCIOUS thinker and an activist]. I do feel a way, and I do feel it's my duty to clarify any Propaganda, accidental or otherwise... REGARDLESS of my friendship towards you. Like you stated, "The stakes are too high at this time to half step."
It is my understanding that the Akoshic record is written on the internal walls of Cheffron (Great Pyramid at Giza) so the Kemetic history, teaching and science is not excluded from my belief system.... on the CONTRARY it is ESSENTIAL. I percieve it as an early manifestation of the Islamism I practice today... all my previous points support that.
I would say that as scholars we need to be careful of condemning text that we are unfamiliar with and or have never read. I've read the Book of the Dead and the Metu Neter, I've been studying the Kemetic Calendar all year.... I would suggest you read these modern texts including the Koran of Mekkah and the Moorish Circle Seven etc if you want to make a sincere case.
Finally... I'm DEFINITELY not trying to convert you or force you to believe anything. I am CLEARLY DEFENDING. It's not my job or concern to CONVERT. I can only expose, I have NO CONCERNS otherwise. Don't get my motivation mixed up.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: If you choose not to tell, thats cool. I just find it a hard sell when someone asks the tough questionz and are left with, "unless you believe I won't reveal". I make it a point to fully investigate anything before I join, so not havin' these questionz answered makes it quite difficult to want to. I overstand one cannot reveal everything to an outsider, but I'm not asking for the playbook here, I'm asking basic fundamental questionz [the MSTAs stance on Allah being first a woman called Al'lat (still waitin' on that, but if you don't know, it's peace); why the MSTA won't go back to the original names instead of islam, which again wasn't even a word or thought in the pre-invasion dayz of the Nile Valley; among the other questionz I've raised throughout this thread; Drew Ali's choice in names and teachingz (christianity) you spoke about earlier, etc].
As you stated, in order for one to understand your "higher" leveled degrees, one would have to submit, I mean, be a believer. I'm not gonna tell you the teachingz I follow is higher or lower than anyone's, that's a word that creates animosity or friction, as if to say one's is better than the other... Another common reason we're collectivelymixed up today.
I think I've given MSTA an opportunity and as I've said before, agree several of thingz especially on Nationality, but the method of defense, the issue of gender (as mentioned 2 paragraphs ago), and the name of your god doesn't fall in line with what was millenniumz before. It's as if to say Afrikan people didn't have any concept of God, had no spiritual resources, guides, etc, until islam came around. That is not true. The Nile Valley is the cradle of all spiritual systemz and although you concur, I can't see how your agreement allowz 'allah' to be the name! I mean, cool, if you don't wanna choose any of the Neterw (KMTic name for Godz), why isn't 'Al'lat' the name?!!? (again, if you can't explain why the MSTA doesn't, that's cool.).
Lastly, I'm so profoundly confused by what you said regarding the Akoshic record being the early manifestation of islamizm. Islam didn't create it so how is it a rendition of islam. This is what I'm talking about. Islam taking credit for something it did not create. At the very least, it adopted it. The credit needz to be given where it's due, our Deities are due the original names they were called, and our spiritual system should be known by it's original name.
The question is, are hedz humble enough to do it...
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: It's not that I'm hiding anything or holding back info, it's just not intelligent to continue rambling off my views if our foundations are not in line. The disagreements would echo what we've discovered in the convo so far. Trust me Ali charged Moors with Uplifting our brothers (same as you are), and unlike the reverse-Evolution system of modern masonry where the whole point is to hide our AMAZING hidden identities (as so called African-Americans). OUR people are truely GREAT sleeping giants and LOVED by the ONE I refer to as Allah. THIS lost tribe (ex slaves in the US and Europe etc) is one of the greastest secrets in the world currently. Spirit Man is nearing his age-old maturing process... And this last part, 6-10,000 has been a true trial by fire like many of the African Rites of passage. The final product will show itself soon. "This world", as I was told by a Coptic brother a few yrs ago, "Is full of the best and worst Men, ideas, and energy, of all times". This last decade and next two years are the final (fulfillment) chapter of the (Akoshic) record/story.
There is only one one God. Al-Islam accredit's him with 99 additional names and I read he has countless atributes, and when you say ALLAH you invoke them all. Other cultures have countless other names for HIM. When I pray I sometimes use Yahweh, or Toth, El, or Jehova, as I learned these are some of his other names. I will research and qualify A'llat and if it checks (It already makes sense) I will use it as well. I don't get hung up on gender, as God is ultimately unknowable for the most part. The NOI teaches the original Womb is the Universe (which deludes to femininity) and it birthed the original (father Allah- corporal manifest) Adam which was an ATOM... Hence the Mother and child story before Jesus/Mary and Yssis/Heru... But life is full of repeating pattern (eminations) sp.
As I have mentioned Islam embraces Kemetic culture so it'll be difficult for you to disconnect them good Brother. All of these gospels embrace the previous (All the way throughout all history), only correcting the parts that were distorted after (for example Al-Islam corrects the (Roman) Christian claim that Jesus said he was God). We call this the "Everlasting gospel of Allah" which is a chain of wisdom that connects back to Allah via our forefathers and is protected by Prophets who keep the chain intact.
The European feels left out of this process so his job is to help the "other" forces to disconnect the chain (divide and conquer) and create confusion.
One of our biggest challenges is to UNIFY from this fractured state. THAT IS THE HOLD-UP. We're currently are all-over-the-place. Prophet Ali (PBUH) left us our Nation, Flag, Divine rights, missing history, Free National government, international recognition, etc, etc, etc to UNIFY under. Powerful legal and spiritual powers included, Nothing missing, not Egypt or Israel. We just need to pick it up and save ourselves.....
If we can WAKE UP ...and UNIFY.... in time then WE can heal this tormented world. As it IS waiting and hoping we can (believe it or not). If we are unable before the clock passes "midnight" the world will be destroyed and rebuilt the hard way. That is the GREAT PROPHECY.
But the tool is here now (since '28) -immovable- waiting to be used. I heard that's what the EXCALIBUR story symbolizes. GREAT GOD is extending his hand to pick up his beloved CHOSEN (us).... We only need to grab it.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: I have been on this 'quest' of 'questionz' for better than half my life, so pardon if I don't share the concept of there being one god. I dealt with this in my Video Article, 'The God Complex'. To me 'god' is Energy. To limit god as a man (and even a woman) restricts god. One of the thingz that stand out about our Ancestorz of the Nile Valley was that god was in everything [this is also why hedz who couldn't grasp this concept, namely whitefolks, called them idol worshipperz (we see several Neterw in the form of a Jackal, Beetle, even Ra the Sun disc)].
Energy is more than man. So even though you say there are some 99 different names for "him" (as you put it, again, using the masculine which leaves out the feminine to describe Energy), to say that 'Allah' is a consumption of all is completely biased and moreso, self-centered, as if to say yeah, "your god may be named Ifa and yourz, Ibo, but we call god 'Allah'; so you don't have to say those names, just say 'Allah', this way we know you're speaking about all of them." But ask yourself, Brotha, do the Ifa and Ibo use the koran?!!? That's the arrogance of islam (along with the other 2: christianity and judaizm); again, a belief system with no date before 622AD that tries to override everything else before by saying, "yeah, those were the initial fazes of islamizm (as you stated earlier)." Wow!
Everybodies not a believer of islam, B. It's history isn't as rich nor old enough. I mean, are you sayin' the native americanz are muslim too?? What about asian hedz?? Are their Deities islamic? And if not, are they wrong too??
So again I ask, why is it so difficult to drop islam and express yourselves with one, if not THE oldest (recorded, at least), that way there's no room for confusion, PLUS the Ancsestorz are being honored?!!?
As far as I'm concerned, to be in a belief system that does not equally honor women as Deities (please tell me, what female godz are in islam?) is something to get hung up on. You mentioned yahweh, toth, el, jehova — ALL THESE ARE MASCULINE DEPICTIONZ OF 'god'. There's something wrong here and while you may not agree, I challenge you to find out about 'Al'lat' and why so many muslimz that do know of this refuse to share, make aware and honor by practice!
Two last thingz, you mentioned the NOIs thought on the original womb and the fable of adam and you say it's a story told before Asar, Auset and Heru (the Ausarian Drama)?!!? Where's the proof in that outside of religious texts that didn't exist until thousandz of yearz AFTER the Ausarian Drama?!!? The bible nor koran gives any exact dates (to my knowledge), and if they do, it certainly doesn't reach back to the Nile Valley before the invasionz!
I mean, think about it, if the bible is a cliff-noted version of the Book of Coming Forth By Day and Night, why doesn't it mention it as a reference? Nowhere in this nor the koran is it mentioned. You, being a designer, if you created a new design that revolutionized the shoe industry and yearz later someone is using your tech and they call it a different name with no connection to you, is that not piracy??
And lastly, although you may say it's hard to disconnect islam and the wayz of the pre-Dynastic and invasioned-era of the Nile Valley, my argument from the beginning has been that you can because they have two different foundationz: one callz theirz allah, another never even heard of 'him'.
But if islam is what speaks to you Brotha, thats cool. I'm not tryin' to convert either, but I am using my Energetic-given right to ask questionz, analyze the answer, investigate and study, then present the challenge if it callz for one. Islam has proven it needz to be questioned...
My discussion wasn't about what or who speaks to who, it was about lookin' at history from a chronological timeline and use that to prove when thingz transpired. Islam is post invasion, post Kemetic Dynasty, and not even 2000 yearz old, that's just historical fact, B. To say it was here before under a different name is like giving credit to someone like christopher columbus for discovering something that was already here; well before he was even a thought...
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: My final analysis: 1) ISLAM IS for AFRICANS: our Descendants Practiced Islam Ancient, and Modern.
2) You’ve got to separate NATION from CREED: Arab CULTURE is NOT ISLAM. You've mixed the two.
a-Islam does not enslave people or abuse women, Arab Culture has done those things.
b-Arabia does not have a monopoly on Islam, they were merely the ‘custodians’ of Islam from roughly 632 until 1928 A.D.
c-Contrary to popular belief, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) did not create Islam, he UNITED it a few centuries after [Europe] Constintine (stole) falsely united Christianity. Muslims have been making Hodge to Abraham’s temple (Kabbah) for millenniums.
d-Islam is International. Buddhist consider themselves Muslim and we recognize their Prophet as true and Divine.
3) You can’t CRITICIZE the two Korans if you have not READ THEM.
4) There is ONLY ONE GOD ...Not two or three, seven, nine, twelve or thirteen.
5) UNITY amongst our people is KEY now. The plan is to make that happen in double time. How are you proposing to add to this effort?
6) AUTHORITY –M’Bwebe’s WILL can’t override the world recognized WILL of GOD. Do you have the authority to [even attempt] to steer people AWAY and into a direction you’ve decided? Who / Where is your leadership?
7) Noble Drew Ali is an Internationally recognized Prophet native to North America.
8) Number of AFRICAN MUSLIMS in the WORLD: 371 million [45% of the total African population]
9) Number Muslims in EGYPT: 79,000,000 [90% of the total pop.]
10) The MSTofA HONORS: Jesus, Mohammed, Buddah, and Confucius’ teachings. Islamism is already Universal.
11) OUR ANCESTORS founded MOROCCO, EGYPT and ISREAL: But we can’t read or unlock HIROGLYPHICS on our own. That wisdom is embedded in MSTofA texts.
12) Take out the KRYPTONITE: Prophet Ali (PBUH) redeemed your MISSING 2/5th (of a Man) Status and returns your family name, history, and 10,000 year old flag!… the legal, mental, social ramifications are immense.
I leave you in Truth.
A lawyer said, “I pray Jesus, tell who is this Allah you speak about; where are His priests, His temples and His shrines?”
And Jesus Said, “The Allah I speak about is everywhere; He cannot be compassed with walls, nor hedged about with bounds of any kind.
All people worship Allah, the One; but all the people see Him not alike.
This universal Allah is wisdom, will and love.
All men see not the Triune Allah. One sees Him as Allah of might, another as Allah of thought, another as Allah of love.
A man’s ideal is his God and so, as man unfolds, his God unfolds. Man’s God today, tomorrow is not God.
The nations of the earth see Allah from different points of view, and so He does not seem the same to every one.
Man names the part of Allah he sees, and this to him is all of All, and every nation sees a part of Allah, and every nation has name for Allah.
You Brahmans call Him Parabrahm, in Egypt He is Toth, and Zeus is His name in Greece, Jehovah is His Hebrew name, but everywhere He is the causeless cause, the rootless root from which all things have grown.
— The Holy Koran: Circle Seven –Chapter 10 verse 11-19
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: 1) No, Islam is NOT for Afrikanz. The "Descendants" you speak of practiced it exactly when? (please, brotha, provide exact date). As I've said over and over again, it was not pre-invasioned KMT! Provide an exact date and it could probably hold at least a lil' weight...
What may be good for you (regardless of stats) doesn't mean it's good in essence. I know I've raised enough arguments to not have to repeat it. If you need additional sources supporting my stance, I suggest you read books written by Afrikan scholarz, Drs. Cheikh Anta Diop, John Henrik Clarke, and John G. Jackson.
If that isn't enough, peep this synopsis of the Moorz involvement with this short video I found, "How the Historical Moors Caused the Entire Black Race to Fall" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3aTxVAWd-I&feature=player_embedded#!
This brotha provides plenty of sources as well as evidence on the Moorz part in the fall of Black Civilizaiton, like providing the enemy maps of Afrika so they could navigate the waterz and come take our Ancestorz and resources...
Like I said, B, you may feel islamz for us as well as what MSTA is about, but history is history, B. After viewing that video, I'd like to see how this is disputed...
2) After watching that video, point a) is seriously up for debate. Can it really dispute these charges??
Point b) also is under challenge (again, watch the video)
3) Who told you I didn't read the koranz? I have read them, just as I have the bible, the torah and a few other texts! In all, they were not from the era of pre-invasioned KMT. If anything, some may have stolen a few chapterz from the KMTic 'Book of Coming Forth by Day and Night", but we all know cliff-notes almost alwayz leaves out the ital elements, concentrating on the synopsis...
4) The one god thing? That's what you believe. Doesn't mean you're right and how can you say this when the highest, most civil, tech-advanced AND Spiritual civilization was in the Nile Valley who had many Neterw (Godz)?!!? Need I say this again? They were BEFORE your islam, B. This ain't a personal statment, it's historical fact!
5) Answered that question in a previous thread...
6, 8 & 9) See, you use the word 'authority', as if one has to have that in order to create change. In essence, authority through the lenz of history has been used FORCEFULLY! Why does my alternative thought create such worry, B? That's a lot of islamic bravado to tell me, a free-thinker, I can't override the will of YOUR god (Again, how different is this from the missionaries who told us our Godz were insignificant to the power of their christian god)!
You ask of my the whereabout's of my "leadership"; so this is about how many of you are versus how many of the crew I'm a part of?? Wow... The numberz don't impress, Brotha. It only showz just how effective islam has been at colonizing our people, which meanz debates like these are ital! Besides, of these numberz, are you not making the error of combining yourself with other/all muslimz?!!? You know, the same one's you said yourself earlier MSTA was not a part of?? 371 million Afrikan muslimz... So you're tellin' me they're ALL MSTA?!!?
You present this number, this 90% of muslimz in Egypt you speak about, it seemz, proudly, while knowing (or you should know) the people occupying Egypt today ain't even the original people?!!? Ask yourself, have these arabz shown any respect to the Afrikan historical truth of Egypt?!!? Are you not aware they are some of the most notorious tomb raiderz ever, who literally decimated and continue to disrespect our Ancestorz history, tombz and statues?!!? These same pirates who recently chose not to fund the excavation of Kharakhamunz site from the 25th Dynasty, telling the anthropoligist, Master Historian, Anthony Browder is helping to excavate, to leave it alone because they do not want the world to know it was run by Afrikanz — that's non-islamic Afrikanz, from the era of 751-648BC (more than 1000 yearz before your islam). This is also the only one their "scholarz" (along with white "scholarz" — of course I'm using the term very loosely) give Afrikan people credit for running when it's been proven Dynasties 1 (circa 3000BCE), 3-6 (circa 2665-2100BCE), 11-12 (circa 2040-1784BCE), 18-19 (circa 1554-1190BCE) and 25 were Afrikan — which also were the periodz KMT experienced its highest, which were called the Four Golden Ages?!!? Please tell me you're not referencing these 79million imposterz as a good thing are you, Bredren?!!?
11) I gotta ask, you CAN'T be implying the wisdom of reading Medu Neter (MDU NTR) is ONLY embedded in MSTA texts! If so, how do you explain the many Afrikan-centered Historianz who make countless trips to KMT with study groups several tymz a year?!
And lastly the quote from the Circle Seven? this is EXACTLY what I been sayin' all along! When exactly was this book written to give such a perceived actual account of what the biblical jesus said?!!? I mean, was there a stenographer around? Was any of this written on papyrus or on the wallz of any temples in KMT?!
The audacity of islam to say, as I stated in my last post, the other names for "god" that predates islam were actually earlier names of 'allah'. If that's so, then SAY AND HONOR THE ORIGINAL NAMES!! Again, you have to provide dates, B. Something you have yet to prove was before 622AD. Sayin' islamz alwayz been here may work for someone who don't know no better; but not me, Sun! Even "alwayz" has to have a date when you're dealing with scholarz, homey!
In essence, this quote is oxymoronic! That's like sayin' a person's son existed before his father, grandfather, great- and so on!!
It is clear to me now that your only arsenal is religious-based. Over the past weeks, we've debated and it's only confirmed my stance. I don't think we can continue unless dates are provided, the question of gender is answered (original name of 'allah' bein' 'Al'lat'), and why MSTA choses not to use our indigenous names and philosophy instead of makin' a gumbo'd version using parts of various systemz as you've indicated.
Trust, I LUV to spar, but I don't feel I have to present any more until the aforementioned is dealt with, because now I feel we are entering an arena that does't use the historical timeline of wo/man history (as evident by your recent quotes).
As Malcolm X said, when Black people come together for liberation, "we need to leave that religion at home!" I hope to continue this discussion/debate, but I seriously need dates, B.
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Bro are you serious? The vid you added is CHALK full of lies. Do you stand behind this or is it something you found quickly? I wouldn't recommend researching in such a hasty way. Are the Moors are responsible for being defeated finally in Granada and having their libraries raided after the city was slaughtered in a betrayel and BLOODBATH!! ? Are you serious! The maps were STOLEN from the library similar to how knowledge was STOLEN from the Libraries of Alexandria. Those Maps lead Ferdinand and Isabella to unknown Moorish Territory over here in North America. Columbus did use a Moorish Navigator but ONE mercenary traitor makes an ENTIRE people responsible for our fall?? The HIKKSO' who invaded Kemet are now the ASIATICS (with a NAS background beat)?? This is emotionalism and manipulation. Tell me your just kidding. THIS IS FALSE INFO. Brother you're SPEEDING now and perpetrating a FRAUD. STOP causing confusion.
I was once told from a mentor that, "Around the greatest secret rages the most intense battles and confusion." Our identity is the the great secret of this time. The Moorish history has been buried and hidden. The accounts you will find will be negative and slanderous like these sleek U-tubes that are popping up. HOLLOW and baseless claims in the face of true history.
Paganism, are you serious Bro. I noticed you still refuse to register my statements that the Kabbah @ Mekkah was made by Abraham and Hodge has been practiced since then. I don't expect you to address these points about the age of Islam. Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Jesus are all accounts upheld in Islamic history as it's practice. Of course you would know this if you read either Koran. Was the KMT before Adam??? I'm just waiting for your sincere explanation / acknowledgment here.... but not holding my breath.
Adam taught about One God in the Kabbalah.... Noah, wasn't a Pagan, The Isrealites fought paganism as well as Muhammed when the Arabs reverted back to Paganism. Paganism isn't African it's a negitive HUMAN tendency.... throughout history.
(He goes on to repeat his final analysis)
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Oh, ok. So, you're sayin' John G. Jackson, Cheikh Anta Diop, and John Henrik Clarke are liarz?? Oh... I see...
Well, I guess this is confirmation we are from different foundationz for sure! And am I serious, you ask? I stand on these Master Scholarz shoulderz... And here you go again, grouping yourselves with all muslimz. So, as a group, have not muslimz partook and benefitted from the invasionz of the Nile Valley including slavery of our Ancestorz?! C'mon, B. You dodged several points and questionz I presented in last post! (The Nas thing, petty. As if I was the one who created the video...)
So you're claim is that all of this is "false info"? Not one ounce of truth in any of it?? Interesting... and a lil' surprised... I perpetrate nothing, guess it's gettin' a lil' hot in the kitchen! Besides, if you wanna call it confusion, maybe that's what's needed, that's IF we wanna really get down to the true essence and sort all this B-S out!
And your quote from your mentor (word of advise, you should know who you're honoring when you use this pedophiles name)? As I have asked you SEVERAL tymz, supply me with concrete dates, homey! And let's compare them to the dates of KMTic Antiquity! Religious texts and references don't count because they do not supply dates! I can't overstand why you can't grasp this!
You wanna ask was Adam here before the Nile Valley? Research I've found showz Adam wasn't a person but a tribe!! So yes, according to what I've found, KMT WAS BEFORE ADAM!
And for the upteenth-time, the reason I do not acknowledge your abraham, adam, noah, and jesus is because without the dateless-giving bible, koran, etc, they can't be proven to have ever existed! So why would I acknowledge a statement regarding them as truth when their entire existence is in dispute?!!? Tell me why jesus' story is exactly the same story as Heru?!!? So there's your explanation on that, you can exhale now...
And you seemed to have totally disregarded my response to your "final analysis" because I already rebutted your 12 points! Howz about an honest reply? Think you can do that, Brotha??
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: As I said... for more detailed introductory information you can look at these books:
#1) OTHELLO'S Children in the "New World" Moorish History and Identity in the African American Experience
by Jose' V. Pimienta-Bey PHD
****My recommendation for the serious scholars summary
#2) What Your History Books Failed To Tell You (Paperback)
by Azeem Hopkins-Bey
(POTENT 70+ page read for a flash download)
#3) The Story of the Moors in Spain
by Stanley Lane-Poole
*****Best Recommendation to Moorish History in Spain pre-1492
To hear a
Moorish Scholar Bro. Jose' Pimienta-Bey speak on our history in the United States and Spain click here:
Regarding the video that divides and slanders our own ancestors, Like I said, there is great turmoil around this secret. Just like the European has successfully SLAMMED Egypt, then attempted to steal it as his own, He slams Africa because he wants it's history and resources for his own. This thinly veiled lie about the Moors is just to confuse the uninformed.
The dead giveaway is whomever made this vid (one of many of it's kind) tried to use STANLEY LANE-POOLE's words to condemn Morocco. This person tries to use Jose' Pimienta-Bey to slam Moors. Them boys would put hot rounds into this liar. This reminds me of the Shirley Sherrod debacle of a few months ago.... taking people and events out of context in slick edited vids. I would recommend you read the BOOKS mentioned here and become familiar with the Authors before you endorse something like that vid Bro.
Regarding The men who's shoulder you stand... can you clarify what point they were in reference. I didn't catch that. Thanks.
Point made: We ARE from different schools. No need to try and convince where it's not gonna happen. .....BUT the initial argument that ISLAM is not for Africans is way off the mark.
(He then goes on to repeat his final analysis a third time)
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: So, summing this up, you still refuse to answer any of the questionz and points I've made, instead you wanna pull out ONE POINT you have a problem with on a video I did not create (and personally believe/support, btw), plus, for some reason, you think you need to respost your 12-point final analysis THREE TYMZ — of which you still refuse to even address the points and questionz brought up on even those!
Call me a person who's about division, and you're a person of unity, right?... ONLY IF YOU ACCEPT ISLAM, right?! Hmmm, I'll remain one of divsion... You've made it clear in order for us to be considered on the same page/team, I must accept islam, so who's REALLY about division?? It makes no sense for me to link with one(s) who simply cannot (whether it's because they refuse, or simply can't admit they're unable to) correctly follow history, which requires a chronological timeline of how thingz happened. Most, if not all of your answerz have been religious-based, a religion that evolved after invasion (a point that's been echoed throughout this whole thread). You have yet to prove your form (of the many formz, you proclaim) of islam truly honorz our past. Instead, you take claim for ideas and philosophies that predate even the thought of MSTA.
You sit here and claim islam doesn't enslave people or abuse women when there's historical and factual truth that among the many invaderz of Afrika, muslimz/believerz of islam have done so. Something you continue to ignore. Oh, you say, those that were are not real practionerz of islam. That's B-S! C'mon be, take a stance, either you rep all muslimz (like you did when you tried with your numerical stats of muslimz around the world), THEN when the tough questionz and points are made you wanna say they're not real believerz of islam!
So, again, until you feel like really having a healthy debate where ideas are presented and questionz/points are actually answered, why continue? And please, no need to repost for the 4th time your final analysis, unless you again want to answer points that were raised.
Regarding the shoulderz I stand on, read up on their works. Understand they don't' make their claimz on religious "beliefs" that cannot be proven and expect hedz to just believe based on faith. These men and women actually went and studied with the indigenous cultures. They used a historical timeline, they didn't just settle for reilgious hooplah...
So with that, I'm gonna end. And again, based on what you've "presented" fallz short, Brotha, Islam is STILL NOT for Afrikanz! It may be for those who refuse to base their principles on chronological timelines and facts, but for those that know better and are even willing to be open IF you're able to provide those dates, overstand we were here BEFORE islam, and did very well. Since it's inception (along with the other 2 big relgionz), the Afrikan Diaspora has suffered...
So until you can provide dates and answerz to the points addressed, this thread is on pause... If you have a true reply, it should include you're addressing those points. Question is, can you answer that challege?
By the way, not afraid of the resources you provided. I'm not afraid to read books hedz recommend...
I leave you with a quote from Baba John Henrik Clarke, "I only debate equalz, all otherz I teach..."
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Your still mixing Creed and Nation. I'm Islamic (core tenants) minus the cultural trappings. Do the math, your choking on that basic reasoning.
To that point, I haven't addressed your replies to my final observation YET because they fall short on being an actual worthy argument. That's also why I will continue to repost them... To keep u from going all over to avoid the point and crux of this debate.
I'll prepare specific dates for your timeline and post them tomorrow. As if taking you from Adam to Granada in 1492 and so many stops in between was not enough.
How about letting me know where you plot us specifically just before Columbus... And how about how we got here on this earth.... Also what is your Nationality? It's gotta be give and take.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: To your point of creed/nation, I ask this question, of all the muslimz of the world you mentioned, exactly (or approximately) how many are MSTA?? Based on that number, and I'm sure it's a small one, your claim is that you practice the original tenants of islam, does that mean the otherz don't? Well, there'd be no cultural trappingz, as you put it, if you didn't use the SAME NAME as these "otherz".
As stated, I agree on the philosophy of Nationality, I just know it's not islamic-based. Show me one that honorz the legacy of the Nile Valley PRE-invasion with no man-made religion and consistently re-edited "hallow" I mean, "holy" texts, then I'm on board! But to adopt a name of a god that isn't Afrikan, a system that does not equally acknowledge the feminine principle, who also lead/partook in the invasion, enslavement, and brain-washing of my Ancestorz, is no different than a black person calling themselves american or greek!
True, Drew Ali did do some outstanding thingz, especially doing it within the confines of YTs judicial system, but from that to now, no one, not even you can really say YT will abide by this Nationality you say you're protected under. That's like Sophia Stewart (who claimz she is the brainchild of the Matrix concept) trying to get the Matrix to award her a settlement from the Wachowski Bros and James Cameron!
YT has proven to be untrustworthy, so to think if/when shit hits the fan, you'd be overlooked because of your Nationality is unintelligent, foolish and fatal! What makes you think they play by the "rules" when it comes to war?!!? Have they not proven they go all out?!
So creed/nationality, either or both, unless MSTA has (or are in the process) of building a militia capable of DEFENDING it's followerz, it's all talk... In war, to not even have defense at the top of your list show and proves how serious one is not (or perhaps, are just not ready, I can reason with that...).
Last I checked, from your meetingz I attended, MSTA has no defense in place! In fact, I was asked to lead the research on building one(?!!?) Again, 1928 to now and no defense in place?!!?
As you stated, you have no "worry", that thingz are falling into place. Well when is the militia part due to arrive?! You can't be tellin' me your allah is gonna just swoop down from the "heavenz" taking out our foe are you?? If so, how different is that from christianity, which teaches hedz to "turn the other cheek", and that "they'll get theirz come judgement day"?!!?
You can say because of my mixing of the two warrants a no response, but for shits and giggles, B... enlighten me. If not me, then enlighten the hedz who're reading this thread. You have an opportunity to address questionz I know my readerz share, here's your chance to enlighten us!
I'll trump your 'Adam to Granada' with Chancellor WIlliams, 'Destruction of Black Civilization'. I mentioned this in the beginning of this cyber-debate! The same also applies for what went down before Columbus, and if that's not enough, read 'They Came Before Columbus' by Ivan Van Sertima. These two epic reports of factual and chronological historical events have been mentioned numerous tymz as part of the foundation of my argument proving Islam is NOT for Afrikanz! But you don't have to take their word for it, even though they supply dates, you can settle for koran/bliblical passages that don't...
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: The MSTA is United in brotherhood with Muslims of the world in our practice of the 5 tenents especially the Shahattatain (declaration of faith) and our honoring of Prophet Muhammed and the Koran. For that reason I am always weclome with High honor in any Mosque and vice-versa. We are Brothers by Creed. Similarly, Christians of the United States share the exact belief of the Christians of Venezula (sp.) And share a brothehood of Creed BUT their political, National stances AND histories are totally seperate. NATION vs. CREED... Again, NOT rocket science.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Um, right... ok, overstood, you can go anywhere and be welcomed. Your point (in reference to my previous post on Nationality and defense)?? Are you willing to provide replies to the numerous points/questionz that have yet to be addressed, or do you refuse??
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: I'm still gathering info, trying to shake out the facts as much as possible:
The St. James Bible has a timetable in the back that places Adam at 6,000 B.C. Noah may have just missed Adam's lifespan but was around when Adam's children were alive.
-6,000 years to me sounds off. It's sounds shortened to match the reality of the European (Very long story short). Also... after all, it the Bible.
Many other sources I looked at on the Web place Adam at 4,000 B.C. These sources are also from a Euro perspective
My problem with these dates:
I'm trying to match these dates with the Mayan and Egyptian round calendars. One Mayan Baktun (sp.) long count cycle is almost 6,000 years (I think?) and we're also aware that it was developed as a repeating 'cycle of time'.
I want to access some other texts I have that break down a 25,000 year 'cycle age' that our Ancients used. I'm gonna look at that again later tonight so I can speak on it more definitively (pardon).
My SOLID understanding is that Spirit Man (Asiatic man) has ALWAYS existed and has been on this planet for millions not thousands of years. Malcolm X stated that we've been here 'civilized' for over 400 million years.
To understand this we have to consider our other planes of existence without the flesh-suits we're currently using on this carnal plane of existence / vibration. That science is also covered in specific detail in the Circle Seven Koran.
I need to exercise my 5 senses for a few days to put solid dates together. I'm most definitely willing to go over more points. Just one at a time if you don't mind.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: I was gonna say, I HOPE you weren't/aren't gonna use religious texts as resources. But if you are, I must say, it will present a problem continuing this cyber debate. Mainly because they are not credible. These books were written by men well after these alleged fables were said to have happened. Many call the likes of john, luke, peter, etc as men who were inspired by god and wrote these scribes. Even moreso, these books are edited AND revised books written by men who've proven are manipulative and corrupt. There are several versionz of the same book and any so-called religious text that's been consistently revised (take a look at the publisherz page or the first couple pages where it'll state what year its been revised) and these aren't old dates, they're STILL revised today! Who has the authority to make revisionz and edits if this is the so-called "word of god"?!!? So any and all books fronting as holy text that goes through continued revisionz are not credible. Besides, as mentioned, they are cliffnotes of the 'Book of Coming Forth by Day and Night' aka the 'Book of Life'.
Which also meanz, any dates mentioned, like the one you found in the st. james version of the bible, is also improbable, as you've noted by saying, "after all, it's the bible..." These books, to me, are Public Enemy #1 for the confusion they've called. I've found at least 101 contradictionz in the bible and I"m sure there's more! (Also read, A Chronology of the Bible by Yosef ben-Jochannan. You can read an excerpt here. Here's a quote:
As we look back into the history of the Holy Bible, or "HOLY SCRIPTURE AS WRITTEN BY GOD INSPIRED SCRIBES," we seem to forget that all of the BIBLES we use were the works of various writers, both men and women; but mostly men. And that all of the WORKS or BOOKS were compiled into what is today our various VERSIONS of "HOLY BIBLES" or "HOLY SCROLLS." We have also failed to realize that the BIBLES we use today are the result of a period of hundreds of REVISIONS and TRANSLATIONS that cover approximately two thousand four-hundred and ninety-five [2,495] years—from ca. 700 B.C. [BCE] to 1973 A.D. [CE]. This link also provides a chronological timeline of the blble's origin)
I feel you on the notion that our history is much older than what's presented. I've found the Nile Valley, KMT specifically, actually served as the metropolis for knowledge. It is here where the earliest recorded formz of history was stored. What happened to earlier archives? Not sure, it could've been lost to time, natural disasterz, even pillage. One thing I can definitely appreciate about our Ancestorz is that we realized our story had to transcend the tests of time, thus carvingz in stone, erecting relics out of 1 piece of mass stone instead of piecing together, was ital. For the work that was done, we are able to trace our lineage and there is no question they were Afrikan. And for that, I am forever grateful and hope to duplicate for generationz millenniumz from now... And in regardz to your going over my points, feel free to respond when ready...
UPDATE: According to msnbc.com, the highest court of islam (the United Arab Emirates) ordainz men can beat their wives and kids as long as he leaves no physical marks(?!!?) This is an ital example of the MAJOR points I've made regarding practitionerz of islam! Does this not violate the law of Gender?! This judgement came after a muslim man slapped his wife and kicked and slapped his daughter. What's crazy is the court said the man over-stepped his "rights" under what's called 'Shariah' or islamic law — which states that a man can "beat his wife and children as long as he has first tried unsuccessfully to discipline them by admonishing and then abstaining from sexual relationz with his wife," — because he wife's teeth and lip were injured and his daughter had bruises on her hand and knee. Is there anywhere in islamic doctrine that allowz the wife to beat her husband?! Obviously not...
This is but one of the many customz this imbalanced philosophy accepted as a spiritual system comprises of! Was it not recently major newz when a muslim cleric said rape was impossible in a marriage?! What about the recent woman who was set to be stoned to death for allegedly committing adultery?! This is a typical theory that exists in a male ran, dominated, ancd hauvinistic belief system who's most important point is that the deity is male! At this point, wondering if islam is for Afrikanz shouldn't even be a question!
It's been echoed throughout history (while shamelessly ignored) that a nation can only rise as high as it's woman. So we can see just how much growth these inhumane religious doctrines and believerz need — even though it's perfectly clear islam chooses to remain a midget!!
And even though an argument can be made that it's not all muslimz, for those who aren't to allow those who are to exist is a form of condoning. You're either part of the solution or of the problem.
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: I just came online to post something coincidental I found that speaks to the point about Islam's "Age" and also the mysterious (to most) case that it's related to All the major religions.... Listen to this point made by Orthodox Jews:
Islam is older than Judaism --
Then I noticed your post from earlier today....... Again Laws adopted in ARABIA under the guise that they're based on Islamic fundamentals is nothing more than ARABIAN CULTURE no different than the USA using the bible write the Constitution and create "freedom for all" while enslaving people at the same time.
I'll say again.... the reason why a Prophet was sent to the ARABS was because they were out of line as a people (BEFORE Muhammed (PBUH) presented the Q'uran). Arabs were burying their daughters alive at birth, severely abusing their women and slaves. They were, at the time, very greedy and viscous pagan worshipers (ironically). Muhammed created laws in the Q'uran to limit that practice and create rights and laws for women including: Marriage and divorce rights, will and heritage rights, etc. Show me Islam creating this type of scenario OUTSIDE of ARABIA and then you'll have an actual argument.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: This wasn't posted directly to you Yusef (as I stated in the beginning of he post), nor was it presented as an argument. It was just a point confirming the premise of this entire thread, that Islam isn't for Afrikanz. The examples served a glimpse of core principles believerz of islam either share in belief or condone in silent opposition.
But since you responded, it remindz me of some of the seversl questionz/points I talked about, and bringz up a few more:
1) Is MSTA recognized by other sects of islam like the United Arab Emirates (UAE) as affiliates? Does MSTA recognize UAE? If not, would they be considered an adversary?
2) To what degree does MSTA dispute/move to correct those who are not practicing islam the way MSTA does? I mean, how many of the 371million Afrikan muslimz in the world actually follow Drew Ali's teachingz? And of those who don't, how are they dealt with? Are they still considered brother/sisterz? Does MSTA still consider them to be fam despite the inhumane acts previously mentioned?
I ask because of MSTAs choice/belief to be muslim and practice islam, so must MSTA assume responsibility for both islamz historic reputation and thus collective acts AS A CONGREGATION. Religion is an organization; a body of like-minded people if you will, with that said, as a group (and a religious one at that) you're all muslim. What I'm calling attention to is the topic of cleaning house.
If there are parties performing blasphemous and inhumane acts in the name of their god — the same one MSTA followz, whats bein' done to correct them and/or defend your form of slam?? Case-in-point, how would (if they haven't already) MSTA address UAEs decision of a man being allowed to beat his wife; the stoning of women, etc??
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Peace Brother M'Bwebe, I'd like to start by clarifying my insistence on commenting on these points whether directed at me or not. It's very similar to a European talking about so-called Black people and saying no offense to the only Black person present. That don't really rock properly.... Feel me? Just for the record.
Ummm, Yes the MSTofA is recognized Internationally because of the Prophet. There is an obscure Islamic legend about our rise in the last days. It says that Islam will go to war with Christianity and it will end with the rise of the Moors in the West. It is Muhammed's 3rd Prophecy.
The Book of Daniel has two similar prophecy's without naming the Moors directly.
Quick story about the Authority a true divine Prophet yeilds: Prophet Muhammed sent a dictate to the high priests in Europe and in Asia at the time when he was ordained, requesting them to submit to the will of Allah the One God and to change their practices accordingly. The european leaders were offended and ignored the unknown man from Arabia but the Asians immediately recognized him and and are known to have the very FIRST mosque ever built there.
There is a saying from Prophet Ali's time that the Moors were going to have to "go over and straighten out our brothers in the east", so no we don't agree with everything that they do (as stated already) but we are brothers.
Finally, I need to see and study the exact story you are referring. I remember hearing about Iraq or Afganistan reverting to extreme Sharia Laws recently but I need to review the details before coming to a final opinion.
I won't lie, the laws within the Koran (Islam) are very strict BUT they are not biased... The same applies to men and women equally regarding theft and adultry etc. That's because as being educated in the rules of the PATH there is no excuse for backsliding. Shoot me the link
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Regarding your first remark, I am generalizing using the term MSTA because that is who I am directing my questionz at, not you persay, Yusef, you are not MSTA (by yourself), you are a member of MSTA. My inquiries are not of what you think or believe but of what MSTA as an organization thinks/believes.
As well, you can see there are otherz tuning in to this thread, so don't be vexed at me for posting inquiries or further evidence of discrepancies I've found in islam… So this isn't about Yusef, this is about the topic at hand, IZ Islam for Afrikanz, a discussion you chose to contribute and join in on. So yes, feel free to respond, but you shouldn't take personal, but if you do, that's on you…
Now, regarding the rest of your last response, you speak of legend, or should I say, folklore (by the way, legend meanz a traditional story regarded as history, BUT UNAUTHENTICATED), if islam is to go to war with christianity, and the Moorz are then to rise, will they not have to go to war with all the other muslimz?
Again, what percentage of muslimz are Moorish? That's two battles to fight (and win, according to legend). And since you say they are your brothaz, I wonder the strategy that'll be used knowing many are adamantly against gender equality, as evident by examples of the criminal and inhumane acts against women mentioned in my previous post. Not sayin' it's not possible, just wondering the strategy for fulfilling such a belief with so much numerical, resource, and strategic opposition — although I don't expect you to share, my not bein' muslim and whatnot…
Also again, using religious texts as evidence is not HISTORICAL nor CHRONOLOGICALLY factual because they provide no dates, plus these books have and continue to be re-edited on at least, a yearly basis, BY MEN! And legendz are inadequate points of historical reference as well if they too provide no dates.
The reason for need of dates when discussing history serves for many points, but I'll note just one:
1) Historical and chronological dates allow the researcher to see what else was goin' on in history at that time to better put the event in context. Was the event during, for example, 325AD (where the "legend" of jesus was invented by the Nicaea council)? It also allows the researcher to exactly place the plight of Afrikan people at that time. Was it before the invasion of Afrika? Was it during the Maangamizi (or Middle Passage)? If so, what situation where Afrikan people in at that time, where we free or already enslaved?
Question regarding the legend you mentioned, since the european leaderz ignored Muhammad, what happened to them? Were they attacked, did they go on living their lives despite his warning? Seemed to me it was just a threat, what was the consequence??
And if MSTA doesn't agree with their "brotherz" in the east, (1) what's bein' done about it and (2) why continue to affiliate having ANY bond with them?? That's like one sayin' we're related to the KKK and even though they hate and kill Afrikanz they're our brotherz because we're both christian(?!!?)
Also, if these strict lawz are in the koran, why ain't hedz abiding by it and those that don't are of the numerical and strategic dominance?! Even deeper, why would "allah" allow this?? I mean, they're goin' against "his" law, right? What's the penalty, 'cause last I looked, they doin' what they want with no repercussion!
By the way, I watched the clip you sent and it seemz these guyz are using religious text that (1, again) provides no dates and (2) are POST-invasion of the NIle Valley.
And about the story about muslimz bein' allowed to beat their wives and children, just google, "UAE, men allowed to beat wife and kids"...
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Legend was my term. The text is listed as a prophecy. My mistake. That's one for you.
Are we still talking about dates? I provided that ...AND the fact that Egyptians are descendants from Ham hence Hamitites right? What percentage of Muslims are Moorish?? Bro, CREED vs NATION once again.
The European did not and has never really openly acknowledged the Supreme God that the Asiatic does. The specific reason for that info you'll have to earn on ur own. (It's late)
Your question about the MSTofA's plan to correct Arabia is redundant and a moot point. If the KKK is buggin out and you're a Christian than address the KKK, don't attack Christianity for it's misinterpretation.
You demand a format of dates other than the history that's available but you've provided nothing that shows the standard timetable to be otherwise. You're reaching. I don't see any sincere substance in what your saying here. You're smarter than these questions.
Here's a few questions for you. What do you call your spiritual practice? And 2, Why do the Egyptians in Egypt not have some other form of drawing spiritual power from the pyramids and Egyptian ancient texts?? Why are THEY 90% Muslim???
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Legend/prophecy, they're pretty much the same to me. Guess you have to "believe", which I choose not to without historical and chronological dated and supported facts.
I'm confused, what dates have you provided? You referenced the koran and bible, and this so-called lineage, but AGAIN, these texts have proven to be fallible, and more importantly DO NOT PROVIDE EXACT DATES!
Maybe I'm not bein' clear on what I mean about providing dates. So lemme make it plain... Where in the bible or koran does it say 1375BC? or 277AD? Show me where it states the EXACT date when the "egyptianz" descended from ham. When EXACTLY was this ham alive and at that time, was it pre- or post-invasion of the Nile Valley??
I've stated OVER and OVER again, the koran and bible are books written based on legend because none of the reporterz [I mean, that's what they were; no different than todayz reporter seen on CNN, FOX, etc (in the case of the bible, luke, john, peter, etc)] were around when these thingz allegedly happened. Can you show where this is false?
I'm not tryin' to discredit everything you present, Brotha, just the thingz you say I know are false. I'm not going to just accept something you say as factual evidence if there are no dates to reference to. biblicals tymz of the day or the koran is not an actual place in time, it's moreso an era, but even those have to provide dates!
Now you mention creed and nation, but lookin' up these definitionz up, they're pretty much one-in-the-same. The definition of 'Creed' as a shared belief system and 'Nation' is defined as a large group of people of common descent, history, culture, language AND includes as an example, 'beliefs'.
And why are you evading the question on percentage of Moorz? Surely there is a number, why not tell me and if not me, what about readerz on this thread?? So, it's okay to throw out numberz of 371million muslimz in Afrika, but not okay to tell me how many of them actually follow Drew Ali and MSTA?!!? Unless you're tellin' me MSTA has no way to tally the amount of its memberz, I don't see why answering this question is so problematic for you...
How is my question of MSTAs plan to "correct arabia" redundant?! So you're sayin' anyone who's following this thread who may want to know this of MSTA is info they don't need to know?? Again, bruh, you're defending islam, right? You're PRO-islam, correct?
You say to address KKK (which is true) and not the religion for its 'misinterpretation', but I ask you, who's interpretation is the correct one?!!? If you ask a redneck, he's gonna say his is the correct one, if you ask a black person, they'll say theirz is, and what about the other ethnicities and their versionz or interpretationz?! This is why these books (bible, koran) have proven to be more divisive than any other book probably in the history of books. There is no reason a book that's allegedly supposed to connect you with 'god' to be so confusing, or better yet, open for so many different channelz of interpretation, do you not agree? Because of this, everyone thinks their interpretation is the right one while everyone else's is wrong, you included! I mean, why would a 'god' allow such chaotic confusion?? People have lost their lives because of it! What kinda 'god' allowz that?!
With all other books (unless there are different versionz and continued edits), you know who the character is, you know what they're about; for example, if one reads a book/story about a guy name Steven, once read, you will know Steven, the character, you know the life he lived because it's written in the book. But when you read these so-called holy books, there are even contradictionz within the same book! Again, I point to 101 Biblical Contradikshunz Even knowing this, it baffles me how hedz STILL wanna claim this as their tool of reference!
Maybe the discussion of history without exact, chronological timelines coupled with having to just believe on (blind) faith are ok with you; maybe that's the kind of student you are. For me, as a student of history, dates are a prerequisite!
Lemme also point out, my questionz have been more directed at MSTA because you've chosen to participate in this thread. To date, no other believer in islam has been a part of this discussion, and since I feel enough points have been made on islam as a whole, because you decided to engage in dialogue, you put MSTA under the spotlight, and so in order to prove/disprove my notion that islam is not for Afrikanz, questionz are asked of you in hopes you will comply/reply. But if you feel questionz I've asked, of which the majority have STILL not been answered (outside of referencing religious cliff-notes that provide no chronological date to support), then why are we still having this discussion??
And, er um, bruh? I've often been told when someone evades a question(s) and respondz sayin' your "reaching" is a clear indication that the person sayin' that is stuck. It's ok, B, I don't expect you to know all the answerz to my questionz (trust, I'm not relying on it). But with this bein' a cyber-debate and your decision to defend islam, you chose to be on the hotseat, B, so questionz will be asked, no matter how intelligent you think they are or not. But I will point out your decision not to answer doesn't help your argument. (I'm "smarter" than these questionz... I laugh!)
My reach will go as far as it needz to be until I can be proven otherwise that islam is for Afrikanz, which, and STILL to this point, you haven't validated!
So in answering your questionz, my spiritual practice has no name, although I may may be classified as a free-thinker. To each their own, but I simply do not need to believe in man-made iconz in order to live a humane and balanced (to the best of my ability) life. I speak more of this in my upcoming book, 'The Unknown-Known" (shameless plug), that I'm almost finished writing. I am a student, a traveller if you will, on a 'quest' of questionz, thus bound to no man nor mystery god that I must believe in based on unproven faith and folklore passed as prophecy (I'm tryin' to be subtle in my response, but you DID ask...)
I make a point to study and research with a chronological timeline of history as my measuring stick. While otherz may settle for the mere mention of "In the beginning..." as historical and factual dates, I chose to push beyond that.
Is my practice "organized" as in, having a congregation of memberz? No. Will it ever? Perhaps. But there's one thing I do know, I will not affiliate myself with ANY organization whose principles and foundation is so open for interpretation, it's memberz can "interepret" various theologies. Religious organizationz have proven to be more destructive in the unification of wo/man with Energy (my name for god) than anything else. I know I'm better off honoring the tenants of our Ancestorz PRE-invasion!
And answering your second (see? I don't have a problem answering your questionz), I don't follow, I mean, you ARE aware the egyptianz that are in KMT now are NOT Afrikan, don't you?! I mean, please don't tell me you are not aware they are the latest mob of pirates occupying our Ancestral homeland? As you stated, "you're smarter than this question!"
And why are they 90% muslim AND they just so happen to be robberz of our land who make it known they are not Afrikan and thus have shown no respect for this landmass with their continued desecration of tombz, archives, historical artifacts [ie, their continued push to keep the tomb of Karakhamun, the last KMTic Dynasty (the 25th) ran by Afrikanz] a secret?!
Tell me you're not tellin' me these 90% muslimz are your brotherz! Please elaborate on why you said that, 'cause it seemz to me you claim them!
YUSEF'S RESPONSE: Alright.... lemme ruin my work schedule to address some of this....
So then if you refuse these documents entirely (Torah, Bible, Quran of Mekkah, and the Moorish Quran) then YOUUUU are a very small minority (to be extremely giving) in the world of people who DO: Acknowledge these books and history. In fact YOU should be making an argument that YOUR BELIEF should be acknowledged as legit.... NOT the other way around! ??? !!!
You're EXPIRAMENTING with something that is WAY over your HEAD and extremely CRUCIAL RIGHT NOW. To that point, your argument about dates is ONLY YOUR argument. I can barely understand the point your attempting to stand on.... truthfully.
Prophecy is not Legend. Legend is something that someone or group of regular people believe HAPPENED (in the past). PROPHECY is a plan that someone ORDAINED has PROCLAIMED WILL HAPPEN (in the future). Since you said numerous times you don't believe in Prophets or Monotheism, this argument won't go far.
REGARDING REPORTERS of history. You see, I believe in the competence of GOD and my / our Ancestors to keep and protect the MOST sacred teachings of Egypt and ALL TIME. Who else would be responsible to keeping up the AKOSHIC RECORDS!!? I don't believe that the powers that appear to go against GOD can TOTALLY out-smart GOD. I BELIEVE in the RESISTANCE and RESILIANCE of Man, of GOOD, and of GOD. I believe the CHAIN of ancestors (be it ascended masters, or high sages) were successful in keeping the SACRED chain of man-to-man, wombman to wombman upliftment together. Jacob's ladder (ladder of ascension) has ALWAYS BEEN one pulling one up while that same one REACHS BACK and pulls up the next. Sorry but I believe in that GOLDEN BRAID. I BELIEVE that nothing was lost. These KEYS are keep in secret places like SHAMBALLAH or SHANGRALAH. Did you not learn about them brother or did you just miss those "LEGENDS" because your EYES were closed as they appear so stubbornly so in this DEBATE! ??? OUR ANCESTORS ARE COMPETENT...... that's why the NEWER BOOKS CONFIRM AND CORRECT THE OLDER ONES!! But you don't hear me tho.....
NO Family... CREED (without a dictionary) is ones BELIEF system that bonds people regardless of race and domicile. NATION is one's STATE (so called country), domicile, geneology/heritage, political allegience, customs, history etc. Get a Black's Law Dictionary Bro! Moors, Arabs, Palistinians, Yemeni, Turks, Egyptians, Afganistani, Lebenese, British, French, Ethiopians (Mostly Muslim during the Reign of Menelek 1 and 2),Vietnamese, Japanese, South Africans, Mexicans, Etc, Etc, Etc,...... all make up the 371 worldwide. I need to understand your point. You seem to be straddling the fence here to me. You wanna make the argument that MOORS are not a factor in Islam (meaning you ARE in awe at the overall numbers - at the end of the day) maybe to slight Moors (your OWN forefathers ironically) BUT you fail to understand how Creed actually works (shown clearly on you MISUNDERSTANDING on it's ramifications throughout this convo) so your question doesn't make much sense to me.... Just say you're in awe of the numbers and the brotherhood and leave the point alone.....
KKK - I can't make heads or tails of what your trying to say, in light of my reply. You're locked in the catch-22 of your own limited thinking.
I stated FIRST that Egypt was grafted but NOT ALL of the aboriginals are gone. They have descendants still within the population. Actually there are MANY dark skinned true natives there. You're point is too absolute. WHERE IS ANYBODY ANYWHERE in the WORLD pulling the essence out of the heiroglyphs, pyramids, and Ancient texts??? Where are THEY and what is the name of their practice???? .........I say they ARE MUSLIM and their practice is ISLAM. How Ironic.
The MSTofA and MDNM (Moorish Divine National Movement) via Prophet Ali was given potent secrets / science held by sages and moslems in the east, secrets HELD BACK from the world FOR AGES until the time was right to release them (I'll post the exact quote from the Moorish Koran later tonight). I can withstand anything you muster. FYI I'm not even an adept in the Temple YET (I just stated at a holiday Inn last night) I found on my quest and joined 5 years ago, but with the inherent truth Ali brought I can easily handle the propaganda you're slingin' and hold my square.... Bring it.
I'm not evading anything. What point have you made that I haven't addressed without melting down into the convoluted confusing, discussion you're clearly pushing for? MY FOCUS: you CAN'T knock my belief IN MY FACE without a fight. You're dead wrong here..... every point!
In general your thinking is basic. No offense but you're the most up-tight free thinker I've ever met / heard of. Your view of the world is very static. You're thinking like a local revolutionary .... somebody from the BLACK POWER movement stuck on insulting himself with terms like YT and BLACK people. The world is MUCH MORE complex and dynamic.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Hmmm, seemz someone's gettin' all Carl Thomas on me...
My refusal of your books is not so much the story itself, some of these stories are good ones, but their just that, B... STORIES! But, again, it's not the stories, it's the historical context of these texts! It may be ok for you to accept these books (written by man, I might add) as STILL holy even though perverted man continues to go in and edit so-called holy text as well as make various versionz of the so-called 'word of god', but not me. As said, to each their own... But do you REALLY I think I care how big or small the amount of hedz that are asking the same questionz? The spiritual journey of overstanding self and the reason for being here can often be a solo one, but I assure you, there are many (more than you care to imagine). But that's not whats' important, this is a not too popular journey, and thus, many will choose an easier route. Again, to each thier own... But when it comes to searching for truth, I don't care if it's popular or not, what's important to me is that it's truth! So you're basically sayin' because everybody else believes it, then I should?? Oh, so when in Rome, walk like them?! Again, maybe for you, but I'm not afraid to trekk it alone, been doin' it for 17 yearz now...
As far as proving whether, as you say, my "belief" should be acknowledged or not, I never presented a belief! I simply wrote a piece regarding the question of islam. When did you read me sayin' this is my belief and/or that's it's better?? What I did was present historical and chronological facts supporting my claim that islamz NOT for Afrikanz. So, who's tryin' to confuse who?
And B, "way over my head?" If this is so, you're sayin' I'm not worthy of knowing?? Who are you to decide what I can question?? I'm a researcher and can ask and critique my findingz all I want, ain't nothin' wrong with "experimenting" as you call it, the history of man-made religionz and I don't have to agree with them! And yes, dates IS the premise of my argument with you 'cause you fail to present them! Who else are you havin' this cyber debate with?? If you can't understand how chronological dates prove something happened, then, yeah, you're right, perhaps this "debate" should end, 'cause I can't see how one can say an event happened, for example, and cites the year 1024AD as proof and the other counterz with an event they say happened, and when asked for proof, they say "it was written in the bible or koran, and because the majority accept these books by the majority, it should be accepted as fact!"
Ok, so with prophecy, for example, your claim that Muhammadz 3rd prophecy, this rise of Moorz is going to happen? But I'm sure there is no exact date/timetable for when this will happen, so I won't ask, but B, tell me this, regardless of what was written in these so-called holy books, it is a WISH, no different than someone prophesying the end of global white supremacy or even the end of dayz! As far as monotheizm, because I do not bow down to your god, that does not mean I do not believe in a higher power. As I said, my term for god is Energy, which exists in everything. I'm not afraid to be tagged a polytheist or atheist, mainly because I KNOW our Ancestorz of the Nile Valley weren't walking around praising jesus or muhammad (people and names not even in existence then) and they seemed (up until the invasionz) to be pretty civil and advanced. I mean, c'mon, duke, the whole belief of god is based on the KMTic acknowledgment of the Sun as the source (or god), later changed to be called the 'Son'. Show me when in the dayz of the Nile Valley hedz were praising allah... you can't!
Regarding your reporterz comment, you again show arrogance of islam because you knowingly admit you adhere to (some) teachingz of KMT, yet you STILL choose to use names and creed that were non-existent until POST-invasion. This is one of the many points I've made yet you still haven't addressed, which I realize you just won't. Why doesn't matter anymore (and you wanna speak of limited thinking)... This again is no different than black greeks choosing greek names, while conducting Afrikan ritualz. You're sooooo afraid to be just your true essence! It's obvious! Just because you wanna call something islam (as you try to pass off as something that's been here since the beginning) don't mean it was ESPECIALLY if that word didn't even exist then. Respect indigenous hedz and the names they used, B, why is that so hard?!!? It's disrespectful, Sun! No matter how you put it!
By the way, you still haven't answered whether MSTA acknowledges Al'lat as the name before allah. Guess you wanna act like I didn't ask that as well. It's cool, you're no different than the other hedz who wish not to acknowledge historical fact. I say this because as I've said, I simply do not believe in your god. I'm not afraid of a so-called wrath that's never gonna come (by him). In fact, it bugz me out how hedz STILL can believe this mysterious god is gonna come down and deliver justice to all the wrong doerz. These m-f's been causing mischief and torture to not only people of this planet but the planet itself since their creation! Yet still no sign of god to punish them. Where was your god when our Ancestorz were enslaved and transported across the Atlantic (the Maangamize, aka Middle Passage)? Oh, I forgot, islam took part!
Oh, you may say, change is coming because the earth is dying, catastrophe's are on the horizon, etc. If this is so, this is your god taking 'em out, huh? Well lemme ask, why is he taking US ALONG WITH THEM?!
The only kind of justice or fulfilled prophecy (as you put it) will happen is when the people do it, not no mystery god. But maybe that's "WAY over YOUR head!"
I know our Ancestorz are competent! Whose shoulderz you think I'm standing on?! I've spoken of their glory all along, especially PRE-invasion! I know we will prevail, but it won't be no mystery god doin' it! Why don't you research the rebellionz our Ancestorz did as they took back Upper and Lower KMT during the Dynasties. It wasn't no god around, it was physical sacrifice by women and men!
I never said Moorz were not a factor in islam, it was a simple question of how many you have, which you've decided to dodge over and over again. It's a basic question, B. You're tryin' to sell MSTA to me/the readerz and when I ask how many of you are and of your unification to other muslimz of the world, I'm the one straddling the fence?!!? How am I when you're the one being asked the question?!
And for you to say you call those descendants of KMT muslim and practice islam is arrogance at it's finest! I reiterate, respect indigenous hedz and the names they used! It's disrespectful, no matter how you put it! I mean, you obviously don't get, refuse to understand, or perhaps incapable of accepting the fact that islam was enforced on Afrikan people (again, read Destruction of Black Civilization, by Chancellor Williams), so again, I ask myself, why am I continuing this discussion with you??
So I'll tell you what, since you were asked a bunch of questionz throughout this thread and I've received not even 1/3rd in answer, I see no reason to continue. You can continue reciting your religious non-date-having texts as proof islam is for us all you want.
For everyone reading this thread, it is your choice. But for me, until these questionz are answered and chronological dates are presented to support these claimz, I stand firm on the notion that islam is not for Afrikanz!
It is your choice to not answer any of my questionz, and if that is so, there's no reason to go on... Again, B, YOU decided to attempt to prove islam is for us. I can't see how you expect someone to believe when you don't respect history enough to provide adequate dates!
To be continued?? Knowin' you, probably not...
PS. I'm not gonna read too much into your comment of my not bein' able to knock your belief in your face without a fight...
PSS. Stuck on insulting myself with termz like YT and Black people?? If you knew ANYTHING about invasionz, you'd know the world wasn't alwayz as complex and "dynamic" as you mentioned. Speaking of which, this dynamic world, riddle me this, why are Afrikan people, no matter where you are on this planet, on the bottom of the totem pole?? It's still dynamic, huh... Dam you lost!
KWASI IMHOTEP RESPONSE: Htp Bro, This Moorish brother is full of doctrine, but has no documentation to his claims:
1. The Kaaba was not built by Abraham in Mecca because Abraham, if he did exist, was dated at 1770 BCE (Dr. Ben's Chronology) and Mecca did not exist prior to the 5th Century CE! Also there is some documentation that shows that the Kaaba, or its earlier forms was used by the Hindu as a worship center thousnds of years before islam.
2. The Noah lineage of which Abraham is suppose to have come from is biblical myth since it is genealogically impossible for one man (Noah) to father 3 different races of people [Ham (Afrikans?), Japheth (Semites) and Shem (europeans)] from the same woman.
3. The Asiatics in history were not Afrikans, nor did they found Egypt! See "Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol. I", page 103, by Miriam Lichtithem which talks about the "miserable Asiatics" and how KMT (Egypt) was forced to attack them and how the Asiatics hated Egypt. This is from an Instruction to KMT King Merikare from his father date in the 10th Dynasty. From this it's obvious that the Asiatics were not ancient Egyptians. Further, Dr. Ben has deciphered an ancient KMT text that says that they came from the area of the Mountain of the Moon which is a phrase for Mt. Kilimanjaro in Kenya that is the origin of the Nile River along the shores of Uganda, Tanzania, The Congo, Mozambique, etc.
4.The ancient Afrikan prersence in western Afrika basically dates from3,000 years ago or earlier when they migrated from the Hapi (Nile) Valley area to western Afrika. (Dr. Asa Hilliard's video "Free Your Mind: Return to the Source, Afrikan Origins). Morocco did not even exist then and wouldn't come on the scene until roughly 2,200 years later. So we couldn't have come from Morocco!
5. If these jerks originated Islam thousands of years ago, then why is it that they follow the Arabic-Quran which came on the scene in the 5th century (CE) written allegedly by Mohammed who was born in the same 5th century timeframe?
There's so much more, but I'll just leave you with this.
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by Kwasi Imhotep (email@example.com) on Monday, November 1, 2010 at 1:25 PM
KWASI IMHOTEP RESPONSE #2: Dr. Asa G. Hilliard, III, produced a seminal lecture series in the 1980's titled "Free Your Mind, Return to the Source, African Origins". So, a few months ago when I first hear of the Moorish Science Temple (MST) and of the Seti/Bey "debate" titled "Kemet (Egypt) vs Islam", right away I know that something was out of order since KMT pre-dates Islam by thousands of years, so there can be no serious "debate" on that score. As I researched MSA's history and viewed some footage from Alim Bey's "debate" presentation, I clearly see that this is just another historically deceptive ideology masquerading as a"black-mans religion." When we analyze the MST through the cold lens of documented history, they fall far short of Dr. Hilliard's call to "Return to The Source, African Origins" without which, it is only perpetuating the demise of our traditional Afrikan underpinnings.
For instance, Noble Drew Ali, the founder of MST is quoted in the Moorish Science Temple of America, Inc official web site as follows: "Prophet Noble Drew Ali taught the people termed "Negroes" in the United States are "Asiatic" and specifically that they are Moorish whose forefathers inhabited Northwest and Southwest Africa before they were enslaved in North America. In 1925, Noble Drew Ali wearing a flaming red fez appeared on the streets of Chicago, proclaiming to the people of the colored race that they were not Negroes, Colored Folks, Black People or Ethiopians."
Viewed from a historical context, Dr Hilliard and other scholars have documented that west Afrika was peopled principally by Afrikans who were migrating from the 4,000 mile long Hapi (Nile) river valley area of eastern Afrika, beginning over 3,00 years ago! Ethiopia (Kush) was and still is a part of that same Hapi valley, so it is axiomatic that Ethiopians were involved in the westward migration as well as other Afrikans. If he's using the term "Ethiopia" in the ancient sense that referred to all of Afrika, then that further invalidates his contention that they were not Ethiopians (Afrikans).
He said that we are "Asiatic". What is an Asiatic?
"There has been a definite increase in African-Americans converting to Islam and Islamic-type religions. In doing so, many have been referring to themselves as 'ASIATIC BLACK PEOPLE.' It must be noted , however, that the term 'Asiatic' is in itself essentially a European colonialist word, having the same stereotype connotations as the word 'NIGGER'! The correct nomenclature should be 'Asia'." (Dr. Yosef A. A. ben-Jochannan, "African Origins of the Major Western Religions, p.195)
Drew Ali, or his followers, apparently do not know this history, otherwise why would enlightened people voluntarily call them selves by demeaning racial slurs? He said that we are not Afrikans (Ethiopians), obviously we are not Asians, and the history shows that Asiatics is not a term to embrace.
What does history tell us about how our KMT (ancient Egyptian) ancestors referred to the Asiatics?
"Lo, the miserable Asiatic, he is wretched because of the place he's in: short of water, bare of wood, he does not dwell in one place, food propels his legs, he fights since the time of Heru, never conquering, nor being conquered, he does not announce the day of combat, like a thief who dart about a group, I breeched their strong holds, I made Lower KMT attack them, I captured their inhabitants, I seized their cattle, until the Asiatics abhorred KMT." (Miriam Lechtheim, "Ancient Egyptian Literature, p.103-04)
This is a quote from "The Instruction Addressed to King Merikare" from his father in the 9th KMT Dynasty (also called The Instruction of King Merikare to his heirs), which describes how the Asiatics are viewed as marauding bands of hungry, nomadic vandals rummaging variously at times on the southern borders of the KMT Delta area, staging raids upon KMT and forcing KMT to mount an attack on them in self defense.
"The Asiatics were nomadic, violent, and basically savage." (Dr. Jacon H. Carruthers, "Intellectual Warfare", p. 23). These "Asiatics" are your ancestors according to Drew Ali.
Alim Bey, continues this undocumented hysterical adventure and adds his own mis-guided persona. Here is a man who looks Black/Afrikan, yet proclaims to be Asiatic, who wears a similar blazing red Turkish fez cap with tassel on his head as instructed by Drew Ali, but who also sports a large Afrikan Ankh medallion around his neck! Now which is it Bey, you are either going to be Turkish or Afrikan, you can't have it both ways. For a man who claims not to be Afrikan, why wear one of the most ancient and revered Afrikan symbols in existence? In his online video "debate" presentation with Sara Seti, he claims that the TWA people of southern Afrika were inhabitants of KMT 30 MILLION years ago! This is impossible, since most authoritative scientists (Leakey, Finch, Diop0 and others) document that the world's first human (homo sapiens sapiens) came into existence on the planet only in Afrika roughly 200,000 years ago at best! Where's your proof for this 30 MILLION years ago outlandish statement Bey?
One of Bey's lieutenants made unsubstantiated claims in a debate with Bro M'Bwebe Aja Ishangi of Da Ghetto Tymz magazine that Abraham built the Kaaba Temple in Mecca, and that we come from Morocco! First, of all, even if we could accurately determine when and if a historical person known as Abraham(Ibrahim) ever in fact existed, his existence is allegorically put at about 1700 BCE by Dr. Ben. 1700 BCE or roughly 3,700 years ago, Mecca did not exist, so it is impossible for Abraham to have built a temple there before the city came into reality! The claim that we came from Morocco is interesting on at least two counts since previously MST claims that we wre Asiatics not Afrikans, but Morocco is and has been clearly a part of Afrika. Again, which is it MST, you can't have it both ways. Further, as I outlined above, Dr. Hilliard put the vast migrations of Afrikans from east Afrika to west Afrika over 3,000 years ago. Morocco did not exist 3,000 years ago so we could not have come from a non-existent place!
The MST is another Islami-type religion that is capturing the minds of our people to our destruction.
"These African-Americans who rushed to claim Islam and 'Arabic/(Asiatic) heritage in their struggle to rid themselves of Judaeo-Christian religious enslavement obviously indicate a complete lack of knowledge of the Arabs rape of western and central Africa in the 18th and 19th centuries. They have forgotten, if they ever knew, that chattel slavery of a type unheard of before in the history of Africa was first introduced by Islamic Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula over 200 years before the equally notorious European Christian slavers in the early 16th century. And that Afrikans, by the millions, were captured, kidnapped, and shipped off like cattle to Saudi Arabia and Persia to become slaves for Muslim overlords and slave masters. Yet the descendants of these same AfrikanIslam, want each and every Black man, woman, and child to embrace one of their former slave masters religions (enslaved) people, who are the new converts to in their flight from their present day (Euro-Christian) slave masters." Ben, Ibid, p.195-196)
The same can be said of the destructive impacts of Judaism and Christianity on Afrikan people!
See The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews - NOI Press, Destruction of Black Civilization - Dr. Chancellor Williams, Introduction to African Civilization - Dr. John Jackson, Deep Like the Rivers - Thomas Webber, The Colonizer and The Colonized - Albert Mimmi, Before the Mayflower - Lerone Bennett, and many, many other legitimate sources.
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by Kwasi Imhotep (firstname.lastname@example.org) on Monday, November 22, 2010 at 11:34 AM
• Nice article on islam. Good job just like all of your other articles. When you get a moment watch this 12min video. Is the 100 plus million in this video different from the 100 plus million in the Maangamizi? Would appreciate your feedback.
http://www.blackpowercartel.com/video/38/ISLAM-EXPOSED Black First!
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by Georgia Muldrow on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 at 4:41 PM
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: To answer your question, I think no. As is said amongst fellow Pan-Afrikanist's, 'No Afrikan is free until Afrika is free!'
Thanks for sharing this with me. I will add to my article.
• This article illustrates perfectly why Neely Fuller's assertion that racism/white supremacy is the most powerful/dominant religion in the world. It is clear that in a global system of racism/white supremacy the victims are subject at all times to the doctrine of mistreatment. Under this system, victims are conditioned to believe that it is somehow "correct" to attack directly and/or indirectly other victims. In the refined stage of white supremacy, which we find ourselves in, the white supremist victimizes his victims through the thoughts, speech, and actions of other victims. Logic seems to suggest that a victim spending time and/or energy trying to prove that the religion or spirituality practiced by other victims is false or incorrect will not replace the system of racism/white supremacy with a system of justice. In fact, logic seems to suggest that it will only further its ability to dominate other non-white victims. We (non-white victims) are all on the bottom of the slaveship, and it is not clear how spending our time, energy, and resources disproving, attacking, and or dismantling the validity of each other's spiritual beliefs will stop the intent of the captain (white supremist) to dominate us. It just does not seem logical. I understand brother that you will be on the C.O.W.S. today speaking on Dwight Howard and Shaquille O'Neal (both victims of racism/white supremacy). I hope that you provide the listeners with constructive information that will get us closer to replacing the system of racism
white supremacy with a system of justice immediately.
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by MICHAEL W ELLISON (ATTCINW) (ME9549@att.com) on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 9:57 AM
M'BWEBE'S NOTE: I have received several emailz from Moorz who practice islam. Here are some excerpts and responses:
• Islam Moor/Muur, The term Afrika/Africa is a Roman province. Islam is not a religion, the original arabs/berbers is US, not them. Do moor research. Af Ra Kham not African/afrikan. Now I will admit moors were at war with one another all over the world and some even grafted certain kinds of men into existence. So yes, we the moors enslaved so called whites in Al-Andalusia. And we sold their white women as commodities and bleached ourselves out. That's why you have these so called pale skinned kazars posing as arabs/berbers. Great article though. In that same book Chancelor Williams also says we should fight to get back our real nationality which is Moors.
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by Donald B. Wilson (Donald.Wilson@associates.dhs.gov) on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 9:01 AM
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: To me, this is a clear indication of theology and philosophies that were adopted post-invasion or after attacks from asian, caucasian, arabic, and other multi-ethnic sects forced us to move out of the Nile Valley area. The tribes and innumerable langauages of our people is a direct result from our forced exile. Yes, there was a time when there was one way of living, one that existed harmoneously with Nature, until the intrusion of non-Afrikanz.
During my recent ongoing quest, I entertained joining the Moorish Science Temple of America (MSTA). And although I recognize, respect and support the work Noble Drew Ali put in, I still have difficulty in the usage of the term, 'islam' in addition to the violation of gender-balance as Dr. Ben revealed — Allah first bein' Al'lat, a woman, not bein' recognized. Whether it is a black invention or not, the law of gender raises a flag. If we knew our antiquity, we'd know how dope some of our Afrikan Queenz were like Hatshepsut and Candace were.
I am very much aware of the origin of the word 'African'. As Chancellor Williams pointed out, 'Wo'se' and 'Nowe' were the earliest names used to describe "Afrikan" or Black people. I realize this must be known and intend to honor our original names by speaking them more often in hopes we will one day relinquish "Afrikan"; much less, know the association.
For me, what's important is a true Sankofa, getting back to the original, the essence, the pinacle philosophy and ideologies we lived by pre-invasion. I alwayz wondered if we were so great, how did we lose it? How did we go from the highest-high to cella dwellaz? This is why I reference and champion Chancellor Williams work because he chronicled the rise and fall (and eventual rise again) of our Ancestorz in a way I have yet to read by any other .
• I enjoyed reading the whole article. I recently purchased and added to my black scholar collection a DVD by the Minister Farrakhan he spoke in Chicago on July 11, 2010 and also, Part 1 of this same lecture he gave in Atlanta, GA., on June 26th, 2010 entitled I believe, “Who are the real children of Israel,” I became upset when Farrakhan began to speak on Jewish people being the most intelligent people on this planet and, that we as black people should learn from them?!!? Got this sistah all shook up, had me imagining sitting down and holding a conversation, like the one you held with the Muslim brotha about the origins of Islam etc…
I am fully aware and conscious to the fact that our Ancestorz were some mighty strong, intelligent and wise spiritual beings! I am currently reading, “Destruction of Black Civilization,” by Chancellor Williams and have several documents including DVDs of Dr. Ben, Dr. Clark, Jewel Pookrum, Marimbi Ani and many more black intellectuals whom are a part of my awakening! I can hardly listen to anyone who downs my black people because of all the dumb Fuc@ * ! ^# - - it, we as a people have already been through.
There is a great book out by Vivian Hunter, author of “Mami Wata, African Ancient God/dess Unveiled Vol. 1 & II". This sistah did her research for over 29 years, she even went and stayed with several different tribes in Africa for over 5 years before she printed her book about Islam, Christianity, Judism; all three of the JCI Western man made religions and how the YT and some bootlicking brotha back in da day sold out the Black Woman and covered up the sistahs greatness! da book is awesome!
You know Farrakhan is a great actor and, I must admit he is smooth wit it! But, I don’t respect any man; woman or beast that lies to the people about a fake ass God which YT created wit the help of some sell-out brothas along with them desert niggas wit they Arab Religion Islam. All of dis sh-- equally has destroyed the peoples mind & black culture, etc….. I do not believe we need Religions in this era in time any darn way; we need our own Army, Schools, and most of all we need our Black Power Back ASAP and Fuc@^&*$! the dumb sh- - !
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by Aleda J. Allen (AAllen@chcsbc.org) on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 3:21 PM
• You know, I think that you've said something that needed to be said and is extremely relevant. I am not a hater of Arabs or Muslims per se, but if they were to share this Black American view of Islam, Arabs wouldn't open stores in Black communities and sell things they wouldn't eat or drink themselves. If they saw Black Americans as brothers, they would care about causes that benefit Blacks, but rather they are more concerned with peace in the Middle East, which they should care for because that is where their interests lie naturally. I understand why Islam or religion is used in general, it can be a unifying tool that can bring different people together for a common purpose. Islam, Christianity, and any other religions can be used to help people insofar as there is an objective goal in mind. Once power and money come into the equation, the purpose of organizing and self empowerment are gone, religion then becomes basic brain-washing and rhetoric.
However Islam, like Christianity has no real love for black people, and each has been used for military expansion around the world including the countries in which they originate from. In America, Islam for the Black American brought the idea of self empowerment as a political tool to try and financially develop and mentally uplift Black people who needed to stop expecting the US gov't to take care of them. It made sense since, time and time again, the US gov't has let them down, as it currently did with Hurricane Katrina. However, with pseudo Islam infiltrating real Islam, along with abandoning the idea of using Islam as a political tool to help Black people, it is now a money making scheme to sell bean pies and newspapers. Furthermore we have people who wear outlandish outfits, make up some nonsensical phrases that don't even have relevance to uplift of black people with no sense or historic accuracy, that the wider Islamic world laughs at. It was even parodied in the Boondooks cartoon which had me laughing heartily. Nonetheless, the truth is what it is. Is Islam for Blacks, I can't say, has it been used for good and bad, yes, and unless it's used as a political tool as it has been used by others, Blacks will only be followers, and the few leaders who use religion righteously and for its true purpose will be assassinated.
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by ine dabath (email@example.com) on Friday, August 28, 2010 at 12:47 AM
• You need a trophy for this one... it is soooo good! But now let me get back to reading it.
xxxxxxxxxxPosted by CLatt (firstname.lastname@example.org) on Friday, August 27, 2010 at 12:13 PM